NM above grid in a hallway of a multi family dwelling.. allowed or not... discuss :)

[tronic]

Hey All,
Debate at the shop is we have a 3 story Multi Family Building and we have some NM run in the shared corridor. The NM is about 12' up, but the ceiling is a grid drop to 9'.
We all agree that in "other than dwellings", this is not allowed. However, the exception for NM allows for it to be above the grid in a residential setting/ dwelling. From the commentary of the 2020 NEC, we see that the entirety of the building is included as being part of said residential setting/ dwelling. The Multi- Family definition also indicates it is a BUILDING containing more than 3 dwelling units, thus including the common areas.
The dilemma is the AHJ is trying to decide whether or not the NM needs to be protected or moved. He is saying the common areas are NOT part of the dwelling(s). While I concede the corridor is NOT part of the dwelling UNIT, it is still part of the building. Which is defined as being part of the overall dwelling.
Article 334 seemingly leaves this all open to interpretation and semantics.

I hope I have given enough information to start the debate. Basically, can we have the NM in the common areas above the drop lid or does said NM need to protected to be in compliance?

Cheers...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

@tronic This is from the NFPA Link's enhanced view.

The selection of building construction types is regulated by the local building code, based on the occupancy, height, and area of the building. If a building of a selected height (in feet or stories above grade) and area is permitted to be built of combustible construction (i.e., Types III, IV, or V), the installation of nonmetallic-sheathed cable is permitted. Common areas (corridors) and incidental and subordinate uses (such as laundry rooms and lounge rooms) that serve a multifamily dwelling occupancy are also considered part of the multifamily occupancy. Type NM cable is allowed in such areas.

 

[tronic]

Yessir... I agree. BUT... the argument is that the commentary is not code and is just opinion.
Based on that opinion you and I agree. The AHJ, on the other hand, and others in my shop do not share in said opinion... I am trying to sort a way to not be confrontational to a "sensitive " AHJ, nor be a know it all at the shop... I mean I DO know it all, buuuuuut...

I joke, of course, the website would be in my name if I actually knew anything...

To me it's a circular argument that could go either way... like I said it comes down to semantics... I'm more just curious as to the opinions of y'all here. Who have much more experience and knowledge...

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[Dennis Alwon]

Okay I get you.

I guess it depends on how the corridor or common area is defined. Based on 334.10 (3) I am betting that the common area is either a Type III, IV or V construction.

Now being that it is a dropped ceiling so not matter based on 334.12(2)

334.10 Uses Permitted
Type NM and Type NMC cables shall be permitted to be used in the following, except as prohibited in 334.12:

• (1)
  One- and two-family dwellings and their attached or detached garages, and their storage buildings.
• (2)
  Multi-family dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction.
• (3)
  Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.
  
  
  

334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(A) Types NM and NMC.

Types NM and NMC cables shall not be permitted as follows:

• (1)
  In any dwelling or structure not specifically permitted in 334.10(1), (2), (3), and (5)
• (2)
  Exposed within a dropped or suspended ceiling cavity in other than one- and two-family and multifamily dwellings
  

So the circular reason goes on but again IMO, based on uses permitted you should be compliant

 

[tronic]

Mr. Dennis you are the GOAT... thank you...

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[rc/retired]

Based on 334.10(2) and the definition of multi family dwelling, I have approved the installation of NM cable above suspended acoustic ceilings in corridors. My AHJ agreed with me as well.

Ron

 

[Little Bill]

Mr. Dennis you are the GOAT... thank you...

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Excuse me, but he is an old goat!

 

[electrofelon]

I agree it is allowed, seems very clear to me. It would say something like ,"in the individual dwelling units of multi-family dwellings" if they did not want it allowed in the hallways.

 

[TX+ MASTER#4544]

Hey All,
Debate at the shop is we have a 3 story Multi Family Building and we have some NM run in the shared corridor. The NM is about 12' up, but the ceiling is a grid drop to 9'.
We all agree that in "other than dwellings", this is not allowed. However, the exception for NM allows for it to be above the grid in a residential setting/ dwelling. From the commentary of the 2020 NEC, we see that the entirety of the building is included as being part of said residential setting/ dwelling. The Multi- Family definition also indicates it is a BUILDING containing more than 3 dwelling units, thus including the common areas.
The dilemma is the AHJ is trying to decide whether or not the NM needs to be protected or moved. He is saying the common areas are NOT part of the dwelling(s). While I concede the corridor is NOT part of the dwelling UNIT, it is still part of the building. Which is defined as being part of the overall dwelling.
Article 334 seemingly leaves this all open to interpretation and semantics.

I hope I have given enough information to start the debate. Basically, can we have the NM in the common areas above the drop lid or does said NM need to protected to be in compliance?

Cheers...

If the AHJ can't make the right call on this matter, ask the CBO (Chief Building Official).
If you have pulled all of the type NM in place without mechanical protection but properly supported as per 334.30 and not draped over A/C ducts or in contact with the grid wires and properly secured with staples or approved means and, before you remove it, I would consult with the CBO.
Be professional and be polite (or try to be) at least. Remember, you may need a small favor later on.
TX+MASTER#4544

 

[electrofelon]

If the AHJ can't make the right call on this matter, ask the CBO (Chief Building Official).
If you have pulled all of the type NM in place without mechanical protection but properly supported as per 334.30 and not draped over A/C ducts or in contact with the grid wires and properly secured with staples or approved means and, before you remove it, I would consult with the CBO.
Be professional and be polite (or try to be) at least. Remember, you may need a small favor later on.
TX+MASTER#4544

AHJ stands for "authority having jurisdiction" which means exactly that is the person or office who will make the decision. Why would a " CBO" who probably doesn't know anything about electrical be overriding the electrical department??

 

[tronic]

AHJ stands for "authority having jurisdiction" which means exactly that is the person or office who will make the decision. Why would a " CBO" who probably doesn't know anything about electrical be overriding the electrical department??

In this case, the CBO is a Master Electrician. However, I still agree he may not know anything about electrical work...
I believe him to be a reasonable guy, but to avoid the proverbial pissing match, I wanted to get the info and education y'all are giving me.
Hopefully, with the references and verbiage, I have been provided with, I can sway, not only, him but the nay-sayers at the shop (i kinda feel like the previous sentence has too many commas... SQUIRREL!!!
I look forward to tomorrow morning to see if there have been any responses that will NOT allow for the install...

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[TX+ MASTER#4544]

AHJ stands for "authority having jurisdiction" which means exactly that is the person or office who will make the decision. Why would a " CBO" who probably doesn't know anything about electrical be overriding the electrical department??

The CBO is the final person to make certain decisions about their local building ordinances and enforcing all Codes to the best of their knowledge.

He/she can render the installation as safe as can be determined with all the facts available and with the intent of the current edition of the NEC.

He/she may not, and likely is not a master electrician or a licensed accredited master plumber, or other properly professionally titled holder, as an example, but has the full authority to make the final and fair decision according to his expertise as the CBO.

Or, take it before "the board", if one exist, for final resolution.

Finally, when the electrician did it the way he thought was Code compliant and as usual there's always a gray area in much of our profession, so he called on his personal years of electrical experience and got the job done.

It's called 'protocol', a local government formality we're all too familiar with.

I'm through blabbering.

TX+MASTER#4544

 

[rc/retired]

In Colorado, the AHJ is the CBO. Same thing.
Or at least in the city I inspected in.

Ron

 

[electrofelon]

The CBO is the final person to make certain decisions about their local building ordinances and enforcing all Codes to the best of their knowledge.

He/she can render the installation as safe as can be determined with all the facts available and with the intent of the current edition of the NEC.

He/she may not, and likely is not a master electrician or a licensed accredited master plumber, or other properly professionally titled holder, as an example, but has the full authority to make the final and fair decision according to his expertise as the CBO.

Or, take it before "the board", if one exist, for final resolution.

Finally, when the electrician did it the way he thought was Code compliant and as usual there's always a gray area in much of our profession, so he called on his personal years of electrical experience and got the job done.

It's called 'protocol', a local government formality we're all too familiar with.

I'm through blabbering.

TX+MASTER#4544

I don't even know what a CBO is. Where I work the chief electrical inspector would have the final say. Can't imagine why the head of the building department would have any knowledge or say in an electrical issue. It is the electrical division inside the building department that deals with electrical issues, imagine that.

 

[rc/retired]

I don't even know what a CBO is. Where I work the chief electrical inspector would have the final say. Can't imagine why the head of the building department would have any knowledge or say in an electrical issue. It is the electrical division inside the building department that deals with electrical issues, imagine that.

CBO, Chief Building Official, AHJ same thing in my city. My AHJ/CBO was a master electrician.

Ron

 

[Eddie702]

In MA & CT the electrical and plumbing inspectors work for the building dept. In MA. every town has an electrical inspector. CT only had electrical inspectors in the larger towns & cities. Inspections in these smaller towns that did not have dedicated electrical inspectors were done by the "Building Official". Vermont has no local inspectors. Instead, the state was divided into 3 or 4 sections with a state inspector assigned to each area.

I was friendly with the electrical inspector in one of MA. larger cities that had 5 electrical inspectors at one time. He was the chief inspector and had been overruled by the building dept a few times.

In a related story when my friend was inspecting the city went through budget cuts and reduced the 5 electrical inspectors down to 1 and also reduced the secretary position from 2 to 1 so 1 person to do secretary work for plumbing and electrical.

At that point he refused to do any inspections and told everyone that called to "Call the Mayor" when they couldn't get inspections. They then hired 1 inspector to give him some help.

 

[TX+ MASTER#4544]

In Colorado, the AHJ is the CBO. Same thing.
Or at least in the city I inspected in.

Yeah, some small towns might not have a city hall that issues permits and licenses and inspections. So therefore and in my opinion you're at the mercy of perhaps, the good ol' boy system. I've encountered that unfortunate predicament before and if they like you, you may have a chance, if they don't then you're at their mercy. Is there an electrical board or some other means to settle an electrical installation dispute? Surely, it can't be left up to one or two individuals to make the final decision.

 

[LarryFine]

The AHJ isn't always an individual, but there is usually a chief inspector for each trade.

 

[electrofelon]

Point is, all we need to say is AHJ. Probably no point in talking to the authority NOT having jurisdiction

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mr. Dennis you are the GOAT... thank you...

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I just figured out what GOAT meant.... Thanks We would be interested in what your inspector has to say about it.