NM in Liquidtite

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Re: NM in Liquidtite

Allen Wayne you just provided it in your post. Look at what you quoted from the code.

(2005) 334.12(B) (4) Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness
(2002) 334.12 (10) d. Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness

When it is raining the humidity is at 100% inside and outside the liquid tight flexible nonmetallic conduit unless there is a dehumidifier installed on the raceway.
100% humidity equates to dampness
:)
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by allenwayne:
[ That`s a pretty damaging statement,to imply lazy is to imply that the install is a 1/2 a#$#d job ;) especially when you had thhn from nm and it met ampacity :confused:
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I stand by everything I've said.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by petersonra:
I am not a huge fan of runnning Nm in any raceway but to call any use of NM "lazy" seems a little excessive. NM is a perfectly sound and safe premises wiring system when used within its limitations.
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Bob, let me be the first to say that I love "Romex" and I think it's one of the greatest wiring methods available. :) You will never hear me denigrate the use of NM cable in any way, as long as it's a code compliant use.


But in this particular situation, my belief is that its use is not code compliant. Therefore, using a piece of NM cable in place of THWN is lazy, and furthermore, wrong.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

I finally got in touch with my inspector, and he said that the NM in LFMC or LFNC is perfectly fine. He said that these raceways are not considered a wet location.

The NM will only be in a 18-24" whip from inside the bldg to the disc. The load side to the compressor, will be THWN.

Thanks for the responses.
Bob
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

I also agree that when LFNMC is installed outside the interior is not a wet nor even a damp location

"unless there is a dehumidifier installed on the raceway."

JW where can I find data to back that claim ?

As I see it and others may have a different view :D but it is written in the book that we quote from...............................
' 100 says - Locations wet - Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonary in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids,such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
334.12 10 (d)Where exposed to excessive moisture or dampness. (OK so this we already know)
356.6 - Says LFNC and associated fittings shall be listed.
And when you bring 356.10 (2) into the picture - Where protection of the contained conductors is required from VAPORS LIQUIDS or solids.
All these related articles tell me that when using LFNC it keeps water out and the listed associated fittings are keeping water out. There is no mention of condensation anywhere in this area we are reffering to .So IMO as I interpet these articles , the conductors inside a piece of LFNC DO NOT have to be listed as suitable for use in a wet location.

(quote) THHN is not for wet locations, and besides, where is this information found that the conductors in NM are THHN or any specifc insulation type (quote)

You are correct Roger THHN is not for wet locations but inside LFNC is not a wet location.As far as conductors in NM I assumed that since NM is not listed for a wet location they are THHN ( my mistake to assume since we can`t tell what they are without them being marked )

(quote)When it is raining the humidity is at 100% inside and outside the liquid tight flexible nonmetallic conduit unless there is a dehumidifier installed on the raceway.
100% humidity equates to dampness

There is no reference to humidity inside or outside a piece of LFNC anywhere as far as I can see.There are referances to water,moisture but not humidity.
To use your theory then if we wire a home in NM and use a 3R panel that is mounted on the exterior of a home the conductors that terminate in that panel can`t be NM :confused:
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by allenwayne:
I also agree that when LFNMC is installed outside the interior is not a wet nor even a damp location
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Well that is no surprise as you also thought it a crime when you could not run NM in PVC underground to kitchen islands. :D
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Well that is no surprise as you also thought it a crime when you could not run NM in PVC underground to kitchen islands.
I must have been out of town when that was posted where did that occur :confused:
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Nec clearly says that conduit installed under a slab will have conductors rated for a wet location
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Pretty sure it was you that brought that up at one time.

I could be mistaken maybe it was another FL guy.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Nec clearly says that conduit installed under a slab will have conductors rated for a wet location
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Yes it does.

Does it make sense to you that a raceway covered by a building would be a wet location but a raceway exposed to rain is a dry location? :D
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Allen,

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Well that is no surprise as you also thought it a crime when you could not run NM in PVC underground to kitchen islands.
I must have been out of town when that was posted where did that occur :confused:
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you sure seemed to think the inspector was wrong in this thread.

Roger

[ October 22, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

If raceways of certain types are truly raintight or moistureproof, why does the NEC bother with 225.22

225.22 Raceways on Exterior Surfaces of Buildings or Other Structures
Raceways on exteriors of buildings or other structures shall be arranged to drain and shall be raintight in wet locations.
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This says even raintight raceways will be wet inside.

Roger
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

You're welcome Bob.

Roger
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

If you read the thread that you brought to the table I did agree with you and was told your welcome but maybe that was from another FL guy or a minnesotta guy or a california guy or maybe it was an actual electrician that has spent 30 years working in the field and not behind a desk with a keyboard as the tools they use daily.Some actualy come to this site to further the knowledge that they have from the experience of others.Not because they are concieted and think that they are all knowing and beyond reproche.
I have seen new comers that have come here to get some answers and they run away because they are made to feel belittled by the knowing and almighty egos of some.It is a shame that some have stated that they have watched and not joined in because of this .I think that is really sad.This site was established by mr Holt as a means for electricians to get and give info to others that are interested in furthering thier knowledge and IMHO not to feed into the pitifull egos that prevail around here.With that said I for one am not going anywhere.I have found alot of usefull info here.Ok so I am not a schooled electrician but I have no problem saying I don`t know something and I am willing to learn that is more than I can say for others NAMES WITHELD
Wow I did that without 8 graemlins or a code referance but who am I just a dumb sparky from Florida.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

All these related articles tell me that when using LFNC it keeps water out and the listed associated fittings are keeping water out. There is no mention of condensation anywhere in this area we are reffering to .So IMO as I interpet these articles , the conductors inside a piece of LFNC DO NOT have to be listed as suitable for use in a wet location
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Allen, although it may be a minority position, I agree you. I read the definition of Location, Wet and see no mention of the inside LFNC used above ground as a wet location. PVC in a slab is a wet location because it is explicitly spelled out that way in the code. I don't see the same language explicitly mentioning the inside of LFNC above ground.


Trevor
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by infinity:
PVC in a slab is a wet location because it is explicitly spelled out that way in the code. I don't see the same language explicitly mentioning the inside of LFNC above ground.
Trevor
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We can agree to disagree. :)

As far as the underground requirement IMO 310.8(C) always required us to use wet location conductors underground even without the recent addition of 300.5(D)(5).

IMO 300.5(D)(5) was added strictly to prevent discussion like this one and it will not surprise me if they add the same clarity for above ground raceways outside.

Can I ask you your take on 225.22?

225.22 Raceways on Exterior Surfaces of Buildings or Other Structures
Raceways on exteriors of buildings or other structures shall be arranged to drain and shall be raintight in wet locations.
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The section requires the raceway to be raintight and arranged to drain.

Why the need to drain a raintight raceway if it is a dry location?
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Can I ask you your take on 225.22?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
225.22 Raceways on Exterior Surfaces of Buildings or Other Structures
Raceways on exteriors of buildings or other structures shall be arranged to drain and shall be raintight in wet locations.
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The section requires the raceway to be raintight and arranged to drain.

Why the need to drain a raintight raceway if it is a dry location?
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That's a good point Bob. I guess that we could continue this discussion all day as to whether or not this defines the inside of LFNC as a wet location. It would seem that it does through interpretation, but it does not say it explicitly just as the definition of Location, Wet doesn't either. Also I couldn't find 300.5(D)(5).


Trevor
 
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