NM in Liquidtite

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Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by jwelectric:
What I am saying is that 225.4 says that conductors installed in a raceway that is installed outside are required to be listed for a wet location no matter weather the inside of the raceway is dry or not.
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Correct. A conduit is not a location.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

225.4 does not say that all those conditions are wet. the 2002 only says that (in225.4) that in cables and raceways the wires shall be thermoplastic (thhn is thermoplastic) and that in wet conditions 310 applies.

That does not, I repeat NOT, say that the raceways are wet.

paul
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

jwelectric said
What I am saying is that 225.4 says that conductors installed in a raceway that is installed outside are required to be listed for a wet location no matter weather the inside of the raceway is dry or not.
:) [/QB][/QUOTE]
Nope , what it says is that conductors in raceways in wet locations shall comply 310.8
It is the raceway in the location , If the raceway is in a damp locatioin then the conductors could be thhn.

I think that it may be a violation of 334.10 (A).
Here in New England I would say it is normally damp at outside locations.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

jwelectric said
What I am saying is that 225.4 says that conductors installed in a raceway that is installed outside are required to be listed for a wet location no matter weather the inside of the raceway is dry or not.
:) [/QUOTE]
Nope , what it says is that conductors in raceways in wet locations shall comply 310.8
It is the raceway in the location , If the raceway is in a damp locatioin then the conductors could be thhn.

I think that it may be a violation of 334.10 (A).
Here in New England I would say it is normally damp at outside locations. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Marc you must be new to New England. Everyone I have ever talked to from NE always talked about how bad the north easterlies are. I am sure that there is at least one shower of rain once and a while. When it is raining it is a wet location even if it don?t happen but one time.

I think that you should reread 225.4 again. I believe that you will find that it states that when raceways and cables that are installed in a wet location the conductor they contain must be listed as outlined in 310.8


Paul here is the Quote from the 2002
225.4 Conductor Covering.
Where within 3.0 m (10 ft) of any building or structure other than supporting poles or towers, open individual (aerial) overhead conductors shall be insulated or covered. Conductors in cables or raceways, except Type MI cable, shall be of the rubber-covered type or thermoplastic type and, in wet locations, shall comply with 310.8.
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See the 2002 says the same thing.
Conductors in cables or raceways, ?.and, in wet locations, shall comply with 310.8.
It clearly is talking about the conductors that are in a raceway when that raceway is located in a wet location.
It says nothing about the conductor being in a wet location only that when it is in a cable or raceway that is in a wet location.
:)
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Mike , I think we are saying the same thing?
Do you agree that if the raceway is located in a damp location outside ,... say underside of an overhang or awning, that thhn would be fine ?
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Mike , I think we are saying the same thing?
Do you agree that if the raceway is located in a damp location outside ,... say underside of an overhang or awning, that thhn would be fine ?
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Yes

but the AC unit is a different story
:)
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

I took a pool of 5 inspectors in our area in regards to this same question.If a piece of LFNC or pvc is installed from lets say an A/C pull out what type of area would they consider the interior of the conduit 1- dry,2-Damp,3-Wet
All said the same thing ."As long as the apporopriate listed fitting were used in the install then the conductors could be listed for a dry location if we wanted to use them" so 1 got the vote.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Allen if the raceway is in a wet location the conductors must be rated for that location regardless of the condition inside the pipe.225.4
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

If I agree with the concensus here or not isn`t the question.Ok so do I ruffle feathers and put the AHJ against the wall as suggested???Or go along and pass??? Why open a can of worms that I don`t have a top to close.Sometimes it is better to just sit back and watch the fireworks rather than be the fireman that has to put the fire out.
I went the fireman route about 2 years ago in regards to protecting Nm as it entered the attic area.To those that remembered that thread it was about in the long run a 3 year old that was almost fried due to a requirement to protect nm above furring as it entered the attic area.This forum said that it was within the rights of the ahj to determine what was adequate protection.I moaned and groaned here and in the field for months.Then one day the unwanted happened a little 3 year old girl going in her new home after swimming in her pool stepped on the threshold and touched the interior wall and was greeted by 125v that knocked her across the room.
The entire electrical inspectors office was involved and the determination was don`t protect the NM like that anymore.This was after probably 10,000 inspections.So it took 1 to stop it but what about the 9,999 that remain.I wonder to this day how many more have this fault but it have not been found as to date.As the EC`S we still hold the liability even though we are required to follow the Inspectors wants.Even if the want is within the guidelines of the NEC when someone dies due to an install that we are required to do,who holds the liability the EC,The AHJ , the electrician that did the actual install???? Cut and dry is a fine line to cross.So from now on I sit by the wayside and watch as the masses pass by.Is it right well that is for the individual to decide.Oh by the way that little fiasco caused a riff that took months to get over .We were scrutinized on everyjob and the ends did not justify the means.
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Allen are you trying to give us all eye strain? My eyesight is bad enough with glasses. Give us all a break, would you? :eek:
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Sorry peter but grammer and punctuation were not in my job description as an electrician but I will try in the future ;)
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

again, that is not what 225.4 says. you are misquoting 225.4. It merely requires thermoplastic, not wet rated wires. vastly different. the wording is even different. it would have been easy to to say that the wiring was to be wet rated, but it doesn't. The irony of the book thumpers trying to use code to require what is not required is lost here.

paul :cool:
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Originally posted by apauling:
again, that is not what 225.4 says. you are misquoting 225.4. It merely requires thermoplastic, not wet rated wires. vastly different. the wording is even different. it would have been easy to to say that the wiring was to be wet rated, but it doesn't. The irony of the book thumpers trying to use code to require what is not required is lost here.

paul :)
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Re: NM in Liquidtite

Paul this question cam up at the IAEI Western Section Conference and of course the answer by the CMP's that was there to answer questions was that 225.4 clearly states: " Conductors in cables or raceways, except Type MI cable, shall be of the rubber-covered type or thermoplastic type and, in wet locations, shall comply with 310.8.

It clearly says: Conductors in cables or raceways in wet locations, shall comply with 310.8

If it has to comply with 310.8 then what does 310.8 require?
It requires the conductors to be listed for a wet location.

Does it make sense to require this when UL removed the listing for rain tight EMT fittings? I have no idea but it does require it.
I can see where this is a very confusing requirement as I too didn't understand it.
But as it was explained to me was that even though they are in a raceway it can't be depended upon that the raceway to remain dry over the life time of its installation.
So UL tries to require that raceways in wet locations be made rain tight as much as they can but we all know it wont remain that way forever.

So the next step is to back up the installation with installing a wet location wiring method inside of the raceway to make sure at least if water does get in, the wire will stand up to it.

[ October 30, 2005, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: NM in Liquidtite

Mike, that was so good, I'll forgive you for siding with Al in the other thread. ;)
 
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