No attic or basement

[rob12013]

Hello
You guys have always helped me. I haven't worked for myself in 3+ years, but now finding myself in my new house"new for me"I've bought scratching my head. House was built in 1984, all valted ceilings and a slab. One counter top receptacle doesn't have 120. I've tried other receptacles to see if bad connection, but it is a mystery. My toner puts the end in middle of kitchen ceiling that's the only actual ceiling below second floor. Is there any other ticks to finding where this romex is going. I do have a inspection scope guess I'll also start making little holes and looking in. Home inspector not very good. Thank you for your insight lol

 

[K8MHZ]

Hello
You guys have always helped me. I haven't worked for myself in 3+ years, but now finding myself in my new house"new for me"I've bought scratching my head. House was built in 1984, all valted ceilings and a slab. One counter top receptacle doesn't have 120. I've tried other receptacles to see if bad connection, but it is a mystery. My toner puts the end in middle of kitchen ceiling that's the only actual ceiling below second floor. Is there any other ticks to finding where this romex is going. I do have a inspection scope guess I'll also start making little holes and looking in. Home inspector not very good. Thank you for your insight lol

Could it be a tripped GFCI somewhere else in the house? In the 80's it was common to feed receptacles all over the house from a single GFCI. You may have to look hard to find it.

 

[kwired]

If you just had a failed splice, say the ungrounded conductor was lost, you likely still have continuity to the source on the grounded and equipment grounding conductors and can still trace them. If you lost all three conductors, then more likely it was either cut, damaged, or never connected to anything from the start.

Also make sure it isn't controlled by that switch you couldn't figure out what it was for.

 

[ggunn]

Could it be a tripped GFCI somewhere else in the house? In the 80's it was common to feed receptacles all over the house from a single GFCI. You may have to look hard to find it.

My house is of 1987 vintage, and it's done that way. The GFCI in the guest bathroom outlet controls outlets in both bathrooms, at the front and back doors, and in the garage.

 

[K8MHZ]

If you just had a failed splice, say the ungrounded conductor was lost, you likely still have continuity to the source on the grounded and equipment grounding conductors and can still trace them. If you lost all three conductors, then more likely it was either cut, damaged, or never connected to anything from the start.

Also make sure it isn't controlled by that switch you couldn't figure out what it was for.

Taking that one step further, some possibilities.

1) If only the ground and neutral check out OK, all the way back to the panel, and there is no 120v at the hot conductor, it may be a switch somewhere.

2) If the neutral is open and the ground is OK, and there is no 120v, it may be a tripped GFCI upstream. Take a peek under the counter.

3) If both the neutral and ground are open and there is no voltage on the hot conductor, it may a totally cut or not connected feed cable.

Bad splices usually don't fail totally, and something usually can be picked up through a DVOM. Another indication of a bad splice is different readings on a DVOM as loads are put in and out of the circuit.

If all of the above fails, and tracing stops somewhere inaccessible, an inspection camera like a Sea Snake can be invaluable. I have used mine successfully several times and located bad splices, chewed up cable, etc.

 

[rob12013]

thanks for responding
I think I'll remove a 1x4 florescent fixture and look over to middle of kitchen ceiling over to where toner is the loudest. when I have toner on I haven't ringed to anything in panel. this house doesn't have normal floor joists,more like a lattice to support a brick floor upstairs, so should be able to see. yes it's strange to have brick floors upstairs, supposedly theyre a thermal mass

 

[growler]

House was built in 1984, all valted ceilings and a slab. One counter top receptacle doesn't have 120. I've tried other receptacles to see if bad connection, but it is a mystery. My toner puts the end in middle of kitchen ceiling that's the only actual ceiling below second floor. Is there any other ticks to finding where this romex is going. I do have a inspection scope guess I'll also start making little holes and looking in. Home inspector not very good. Thank you for your insight lol

Middle of kitchen ceiling. Sound like that's where a light fixture may have been. Remodel and buried junction box.

I'm not saying that's where the problems is but it would make sense (happens all the time, buried junction boxes ).

 

[JFletcher]

If you stuck a toner on the neutral or ground, it should ring out everywhere...or maybe nowhere at all since all the grounds and neutrals are tied together in the panel... Ive only tried ringing the ungrounded conductor to find the breaker it's on....THAT you should be able to find. Like others wrote, look for a tripped GFCI (tho you'd think numerous receptacles would be dead if that were the issue), or a switched receptacle (another oddball, especially in a kitchen).

What checks did you do? Plug tester I'm guessing shows nada if you have no 120V. No neutral-ground continuity? Did removing the receptacle reveal anything?

We had a troubleshooting call about a month ago, lots of dead stuff in the kitchen. Contractor there said he saw a spark before everything went out. Checked the panel; no apparent tripped breakers, until I put a meter on it and found continuity from load side of a breaker to neutral bar. Flipped the breaker off then back on, everything came back up. Was just a tripped breaker that did not flip to a trip position. Spark was from him trying to remove a live receptacle himself and grounded it out on the box.

That light fixture may very well be where the problem is, tho I thought feeding receptacles from lights was abandoned long ago. I have seen that problem but on much older buildings. good luck, let us know what you find.

A failed backstab crossed my mind but since you have tone up to a ceiling light I dont think that will be the cause here.

 

[rob12013]

removing receptacle was an eye opener to say the least, don't get me wrong i like my newly bought house but the wiring I saw was bad. the neutral was rigged to the bare ground, so setting up for parallel neutral and that's not all, the other romex in box the neutral was phased black and tied to outlet for the hot. pretty crazy but there's not 120 on anything now

 

[JFletcher]

removing receptacle was an eye opener to say the least, don't get me wrong i like my newly bought house but the wiring I saw was bad. the neutral was rigged to the bare ground, so setting up for parallel neutral and that's not all, the other romex in box the neutral was phased black and tied to outlet for the hot. pretty crazy but there's not 120 on anything now

:blink::happysad:

Could you describe this (or post a picture) a bit better? Are you saying the ground was tied to neutral and ground, and the white wire taped or sharpie'd black to be the ungrounded conductor? Where the heck is the 3rd conductor? or are there 2 different NM/Romex cables in the box?

...

Thinking about this for a second, it almost sounds like a switch loop was run to the receptacle, thus the re-identified white/neutral conductor, and a neutral was pulled from another receptacle to complete the circuit. or perhaps it was supposed to be a switch in the first place, and someone tried to put a receptacle there w/o a neutral, and cobbled together the mess you have. Perhaps the kitchen was remodeled and the feed to that receptacle abandoned, and it just never got removed. Heck it could have been hosed up for the past 32 years and the previous HOs just worked around it.

I quite enjoy armchair troubleshooting, but this particular problem's resolution is escaping me for the moment. I wish I could see this in person as troubleshooting is hands down the best part of the job.

 

[rob12013]

Yes it crossed my mind about it maybe being switched receptacle


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[growler]

removing receptacle was an eye opener to say the least, don't get me wrong i like my newly bought house but the wiring I saw was bad. the neutral was rigged to the bare ground, so setting up for parallel neutral and that's not all, the other romex in box the neutral was phased black and tied to outlet for the hot. pretty crazy but there's not 120 on anything now

I have been doing electrical work for over 40 years and when I see wiring like that it scares me.It lets me know that whoever was working on the electrical system earlier didn't have the slightest idea what they were doing and you may find anything.

 

[K8MHZ]

Those wire nuts aren't listed for use with a single conductor.

 

[JFletcher]

Those wire nuts aren't listed for use with a single conductor.

Looking at the bright side, are we? Seems the least of the OP's problems.

Yes it crossed my mind about it maybe being switched receptacle


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Wow. That's some awful wiring indeed. I think anyone you call out will be saying Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. That is so bad I dont even know what to say. If you want to fix it yourself, remove the receptacle, cap off all conductors and put a blank plate over it. and pray that's the only box in the house that looks like that.

I think it impossible an electrician did that work. There's half a dozen violations in one pic.

 

[rob12013]

Yes I do wish it wasnt there but that area needs a outlet. I might just get one of these new afci/gfci panels where there isn't any more pigtails on the breakers and replace old panel. The new afci/gfci combo breakers seem pretty great? All in one now right?

 

[JFletcher]

Fixing this may not be so hard. Is there 120V to neutral on the capped off NM? That definitely appears to be a switch leg; I can think of no other reason why the white would be painted/taped black. There's no power there with all switches on?

In any event, I'd put in a GFCI receptacle. No idea what code NC is on if you need AFCI breakers, but if that box is any indication of the rest of the house, AFCI are gonna trip trip trip if installed.

General consensus here is AFCI are useless to a ploy to get the mfg's $$$. If you go with a new panel, be prepared to take out every device to find crossed up neutrals. ofc, if I saw something like what you posted in my house, every box would be gone thru within a week.

 

[user 100]

Yes it crossed my mind about it maybe being switched receptacle


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There are components in this pic that are definitely vintage 1980s-

First the rec, which I'm almost certain is a Leviton res grade of that era, identifiable by the straight slot, round head terminal screws they used then on their devices. Second, the GB yellow hard wirenut, which was very popular then and likely originally capped a pigtail/joint on either the hot (most likely) or neutral. Lastly the crimp is very likely to be a legacy of the original install-hacks don't generally use crimps on egcs, which was very popular in the '80s and that is the old thick jacket white nm.

The orange wirenuts, while they were around then, are likely not part of the original installation, and are of a variety used by hacks.

Fixing this may not be so hard. Is there 120V to neutral on the capped off NM? That definitely appears to be a switch leg; I can think of no other reason why the white would be painted/taped black. There's no power there with all switches on?.

I think that the receptacle was originally part of a switched set up, the hot from each nm was tied together and independent of the rec (feeding the rest of the ckt - wherever that was) and whatever was fed by the cable on the left was disconnected (uncapped the hots) by someone (and could now be a dead end) and the receptacle may have got its neutral thru that (there was a neutral present from somewhere else at the final destination -light,rec, sw whatever -of this cable that could be capped off), but when trunk slammer got done w/ it the rec didnt work and so he just hooked the rec N to excess egc past the end of the crimp cap the original installer didn't trim back and reused the old wirenut.

A good clue to what the original wiring scheme in the box was is to examine the back of the rec, and see what back stab holes there are copper stubs sticking out of, if either tabs on both sides have been broken etc......

There is no telling what they did, why they did it or anything else and a full examination is justified based on this box alone.

 

[growler]

That definitely appears to be a switch leg; I can think of no other reason why the white would be painted/taped black. There's no power there with all switches on.

To re-indentify a neutral/white wire would be something an electrician would do when useing the white as a swith leg. I wouldn't think that an electrician did this work except for original install. In 1984 it was not common practice to re-identify a white when useing as switch leg.

There are other reasons to put black tape on a conductor. If the insulation is damaged in some way ( burned or nicked ) it is and was common practice to tape for insulation purposes.

It was never common practice to switch a counter top receptacle.

I think they lost power on the hot/black conductor. Used the white conductor for power and switched neutral over to the grounding conductor. It may have worked like this at one time.

I would take all conductors loose form receptacle and trace them to see where they go. I think you will find a buried box or flying splice. When you find wiring rigged in one place you normally find it in others.

 

[mgookin]

If you haven't moved in yet you may want to just pull every device in the building.

 

[growler]

If you haven't moved in yet you may want to just pull every device in the building.

I think I would. At least there is no attic or crawl space to worry about.