I am doing some work in a 4 family apartment bldg. that was constructed in 1962. The bathrooms have no receptacles. Minor remodeling of the building is in progress, but no walls or floors are to be opened or altered. New cabinets, plumbing fixtures, light fixtures, switches, receptacles, carpeting etc. are being replaced. Am I required to add a GFI in the bathrooms?
no bathroom receptacles
- Thread starter sam77
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websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: no bathroom receptacles
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Without a bath GFCI, people have to run lead cords into bathrooms to use things like hair dryers. Cords fray, get tripped over, they use too light a cord for the dryer's power, etc. And its probbably plugged into a non-GFCI bedroom or hallway posing a distinct shock hazzard.
Check with your local building codes dudes. The NEC itself isn't retroactive (i.e. they'd not be a mandated retrofit from a NEC POV), but localities may want certain work done depending on the extent of remodeling. Bath GFCI and hard wired smoke detectors are common on these sorts of lists.
Without a bath GFCI, people have to run lead cords into bathrooms to use things like hair dryers. Cords fray, get tripped over, they use too light a cord for the dryer's power, etc. And its probbably plugged into a non-GFCI bedroom or hallway posing a distinct shock hazzard.
G
Guest
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Re: no bathroom receptacles
What did the 1960 NEC say about minimum branch circuits or receptacle placement? Was one required by code in 1962? Was the NEC adopted in your jurisdiction at that time?
Even if not required at the time current knowledge of current requirements and their reasoning may lead to current or future civil liability. If somebody gets hurt because of a lack of a protected receptacle the injured party will seek out the deepest pocket and for anybody with unclean hands.
Liability aside it would be helpful for the tenants to have a protected receptacle in their bathrooms. It would be a value add and could be recovered by increasing the rent appropriately by amortizing the true cost over the life of the receptacle and circuit.
Talk to the the owner/developer and see if they will allow this as a change order add.
What did the 1960 NEC say about minimum branch circuits or receptacle placement? Was one required by code in 1962? Was the NEC adopted in your jurisdiction at that time?
Even if not required at the time current knowledge of current requirements and their reasoning may lead to current or future civil liability. If somebody gets hurt because of a lack of a protected receptacle the injured party will seek out the deepest pocket and for anybody with unclean hands.
Liability aside it would be helpful for the tenants to have a protected receptacle in their bathrooms. It would be a value add and could be recovered by increasing the rent appropriately by amortizing the true cost over the life of the receptacle and circuit.
Talk to the the owner/developer and see if they will allow this as a change order add.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: no bathroom receptacles
According to sam77's profile, he is an electrician. The subject of this web site is National Electrical Code. The post is in the NEC section of this board. The answer one would expect would reflect the NEC. The question was about a requirement concerning the NEC.
That said, the only answer posted that was in responce to the question asked is mine. All of the other answers are personal opinions and should be noted as such.
According to sam77's profile, he is an electrician. The subject of this web site is National Electrical Code. The post is in the NEC section of this board. The answer one would expect would reflect the NEC. The question was about a requirement concerning the NEC.
That said, the only answer posted that was in responce to the question asked is mine. All of the other answers are personal opinions and should be noted as such.
Re: no bathroom receptacles
The NEC did not require a receptacle in the bathroom, until 1981,210.52.c.
A bathroom receptacle was required by the NEC, to be on a GFCI in 1975, 210.8.a, if a receptacle was installed.
The 20 amp circuit was first required in 1996 by the NEC. 210.52.3.d.
A receptacle was not required in 1962 to be placed in a bathroom. The proposal was submitted and rejected for safety reasons, many times, until the GFCI was born. Notice the "shall be installed" did not show up until after the GFCI requirement.
I feel my previous answer was fact and not my opinion. Otherwise I am sorry.
[ October 12, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
The NEC did not require a receptacle in the bathroom, until 1981,210.52.c.
A bathroom receptacle was required by the NEC, to be on a GFCI in 1975, 210.8.a, if a receptacle was installed.
The 20 amp circuit was first required in 1996 by the NEC. 210.52.3.d.
A receptacle was not required in 1962 to be placed in a bathroom. The proposal was submitted and rejected for safety reasons, many times, until the GFCI was born. Notice the "shall be installed" did not show up until after the GFCI requirement.
I feel my previous answer was fact and not my opinion. Otherwise I am sorry.
[ October 12, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Wow Dave what's the problem? All the answers are relevant and helpful, particularly tonyis. In regards to the question asked a simple NEC quote is useless.
Wow Dave what's the problem? All the answers are relevant and helpful, particularly tonyis. In regards to the question asked a simple NEC quote is useless.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Bennie: I see no need to apologize. In my opinion, you are exactly correct. If the inspector required me to install an outlet, I would be in to see the board of appeals faster than you could say "malicous prosecution"!!!
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Scott,
Often times a question is asked and an answer is given that has in it's context ways to not comply with the code. Certainly where this person lives, there is a building code or electrical code in effect. Most likely, any where from 1996 to 2002, the NEC is there. The comments like tonyi's are relevant and well intended. The comments of others often distract from the issue at hand and leave an attitude of ambiguous concern.
Scott,
Often times a question is asked and an answer is given that has in it's context ways to not comply with the code. Certainly where this person lives, there is a building code or electrical code in effect. Most likely, any where from 1996 to 2002, the NEC is there. The comments like tonyi's are relevant and well intended. The comments of others often distract from the issue at hand and leave an attitude of ambiguous concern.
russellroberts
Senior Member
- Location
- Georgia
Re: no bathroom receptacles
I,ve been involved with some similar jobs. 2 of them,all we were required to do is add some smoke detectors.The only recep in the bathroom were ones made into the light fixture over the bathroom sink.This was Govt. funded "rehab" and we followed the guidelines in the specs.These apts. were built in the 50's.
My humble experience has been that the call is made by the AHJ and depends on the amount of remodeling done.
Russell
I,ve been involved with some similar jobs. 2 of them,all we were required to do is add some smoke detectors.The only recep in the bathroom were ones made into the light fixture over the bathroom sink.This was Govt. funded "rehab" and we followed the guidelines in the specs.These apts. were built in the 50's.
My humble experience has been that the call is made by the AHJ and depends on the amount of remodeling done.
Russell
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Dave: Please tell me where my response is not clear, vague, or has two meanings.
The NEC has no jurisdiction in past performance that was legal at the time. This is a law in a document called the Bill of Rights, and not a choice by different localities.
Dave: Please tell me where my response is not clear, vague, or has two meanings.
The NEC has no jurisdiction in past performance that was legal at the time. This is a law in a document called the Bill of Rights, and not a choice by different localities.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Ryan,
You are a working Inspector, right?
In your jurisdiction, when a home or an apartment building is being remodeled, is it a requirement for the owner or contractor to pull a permit? If so, then there will be inspections, right? When there is a plan review, the current code is the reference, right?
If this above scenario is correct, then codes will be followed. If this above scenario is incorrect, please enlighten me.
Ryan,
You are a working Inspector, right?
In your jurisdiction, when a home or an apartment building is being remodeled, is it a requirement for the owner or contractor to pull a permit? If so, then there will be inspections, right? When there is a plan review, the current code is the reference, right?
If this above scenario is correct, then codes will be followed. If this above scenario is incorrect, please enlighten me.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: no bathroom receptacles
IMO unless it presents an imminent danger to occupants, the NEC does not provide the authority to force this update.
I think that would be a stretch to say that about lack of GFCIs.
If it was my house I would like GFCIs installed but I do not believe you can say it is NEC required.
2002 NEC
2002 MA Amendments
IMO unless it presents an imminent danger to occupants, the NEC does not provide the authority to force this update.
I think that would be a stretch to say that about lack of GFCIs.
If it was my house I would like GFCIs installed but I do not believe you can say it is NEC required.
2002 NEC
Or if sam77 lives in MA
2002 MA Amendments
G
Guest
Guest
Re: no bathroom receptacles
[Note: If you have any personal issues with me or this post please contact me by Private Message so we can work it out].
[Edit add]:
Websparky: I re-read the posts and I see your point. However my first read on the original post was that Sam is not actually remodeling the bathroom. If Sam is remodeling the bathroom then the 2002 NEC may force compliance. The other answers play off of that. My answer is questioning what the code was at the time of construction. Bennie answered that. I also went on to opine that code aside it would be a good tenant improvement to put in a receptacle. I truly apologize if my comments appeared to be running off-track-- as that was not my intention. You may notice that when there is a question that I usually have more questions before jumping in with my final opinion. Each one us brought something to the table on this one. Sam can sort it out to his benefit.
../Wayne C.
[ October 12, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
All of our answers here are personal opinions (that's a posted forum rule). I don't feel compelled to provide a disclaimer with every answer. Either we believe in an answer or we don't. If we don't believe it to be true it should remain unsaid (that's also a forum policy). If we are wrong somebody will let us know.
Mikeholt.com NEC Forum Rules, Policies, Disclaimers
[Note: If you have any personal issues with me or this post please contact me by Private Message so we can work it out].
[Edit add]:
Websparky: I re-read the posts and I see your point. However my first read on the original post was that Sam is not actually remodeling the bathroom. If Sam is remodeling the bathroom then the 2002 NEC may force compliance. The other answers play off of that. My answer is questioning what the code was at the time of construction. Bennie answered that. I also went on to opine that code aside it would be a good tenant improvement to put in a receptacle. I truly apologize if my comments appeared to be running off-track-- as that was not my intention. You may notice that when there is a question that I usually have more questions before jumping in with my final opinion. Each one us brought something to the table on this one. Sam can sort it out to his benefit.
../Wayne C.
[ October 12, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Dave: I can appreciate your question, I think it is a valid one. Yes, permits are required and issued. Yes plans are reviewed, with the current adopted code as the governing article. Yes, there will be inspections.
As stated previously, the smoke dectectors will be required to be installed if any walls are opened up, or if any walls are constructed. That is a building code requirement. That, however, is where it ends.
I can not make someone rip out the ceiling and floor framing at the stairs to the basement because they don't have 6'8" headroom, if they are just adding cabinets to the upstairs bathroom, right?
Now, what if they decide to lengthen the kitchen countertop by four feet? I will have them add a receptacle outlet.
If they put a new sink in the bathroom, however, I cannot make them add a receptacel outlet to serve it.
Dave: I can appreciate your question, I think it is a valid one. Yes, permits are required and issued. Yes plans are reviewed, with the current adopted code as the governing article. Yes, there will be inspections.
As stated previously, the smoke dectectors will be required to be installed if any walls are opened up, or if any walls are constructed. That is a building code requirement. That, however, is where it ends.
I can not make someone rip out the ceiling and floor framing at the stairs to the basement because they don't have 6'8" headroom, if they are just adding cabinets to the upstairs bathroom, right?
Now, what if they decide to lengthen the kitchen countertop by four feet? I will have them add a receptacle outlet.
If they put a new sink in the bathroom, however, I cannot make them add a receptacel outlet to serve it.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Just a suggestion, should you decide to add a GFI receptacle, remove the switch plate and switch for the bathroom and see if the neutral passes through that box. If so, use the Levitton "switch over GFI" module. That way you won't have to cut in a new box.
In my opinion I believe Bennie's answer to be the most correct. I would also check any other codes (Building or Rehab) in your area to see if they apply. However, if the AHJ insists on having a GFI receptacle installed I don't believe the real issue would be adding the GFI receptacle but rather the difficulty or hardship of installing the 20 amp circuit. If you have no means of installing that 20 amp line without doing some damage to the areas that are not being renovated I don't see how they can make you install it.
Just a suggestion, should you decide to add a GFI receptacle, remove the switch plate and switch for the bathroom and see if the neutral passes through that box. If so, use the Levitton "switch over GFI" module. That way you won't have to cut in a new box.
Re: no bathroom receptacles
i have never been one to put my two cents where it is not wanted, but this might be my last chance so here goes.it is required as stated. if a tenant would complain then it would be required by property maintenance code no matter when it was built.boca 1996 605.2, maybe not the nec but still enforced by ahj GEO
i have never been one to put my two cents where it is not wanted, but this might be my last chance so here goes.it is required as stated. if a tenant would complain then it would be required by property maintenance code no matter when it was built.boca 1996 605.2, maybe not the nec but still enforced by ahj GEO
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Vanwalker,
Also back to the original posters question, you need to consult with the AHJ. Again here in MI a 50% or more remodel requires everything in that room to be code compliant.
Scott
Vanwalker,
I have a few rental properties myself and I am glad they are not in your area. What you have stated is considered a wish list here in MI. AHJ can only enforce imenant dangers to life or property, a GFCI that is not present in a bath is not one of them.
Also back to the original posters question, you need to consult with the AHJ. Again here in MI a 50% or more remodel requires everything in that room to be code compliant.
Scott
Re: no bathroom receptacles
Thanks for all the input.......
First of all, I live in Wisconsin.
I called the AHJ and was told I did not need an outlet in the bathrooms according to national, state and local codes, considering that no walls or floors were opened or altered in any way.
But here is the kicker.
After further discussion, I had learned that when the ORIGINAL light fixture was removed and was to be replaced, at that point I was now required to not only add a recep. in the bath, but it had to be up to the 2002 code.
The existing light fixture had a non grounded recep. factory installed in the fixture, which would have been fine, had it remained.
But since it was to be replaced, it was not grandfathered in under the original code when the building was built, therefore the bathroom must comply to the most current codes.
The reason I posted this question in the first place was that the bath outlets were missed in the remodel quote, and there will be excess time and materials to bring the baths up to code.
Thanks all for the info, facts, and comments.
All was appriciated.
By the way, I hold a state master licence for the state of WI, and have been in the practice for 22 years. My only concern with this project has been that it was residential. I have been doing commercial/industrial work for the last 20 some years, and needed some good input before I talked to the local AHJ.
Thanks again all!
Sam77
Thanks for all the input.......
First of all, I live in Wisconsin.
I called the AHJ and was told I did not need an outlet in the bathrooms according to national, state and local codes, considering that no walls or floors were opened or altered in any way.
But here is the kicker.
After further discussion, I had learned that when the ORIGINAL light fixture was removed and was to be replaced, at that point I was now required to not only add a recep. in the bath, but it had to be up to the 2002 code.
The existing light fixture had a non grounded recep. factory installed in the fixture, which would have been fine, had it remained.
But since it was to be replaced, it was not grandfathered in under the original code when the building was built, therefore the bathroom must comply to the most current codes.
The reason I posted this question in the first place was that the bath outlets were missed in the remodel quote, and there will be excess time and materials to bring the baths up to code.
Thanks all for the info, facts, and comments.
All was appriciated.
By the way, I hold a state master licence for the state of WI, and have been in the practice for 22 years. My only concern with this project has been that it was residential. I have been doing commercial/industrial work for the last 20 some years, and needed some good input before I talked to the local AHJ.
Thanks again all!
Sam77
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