No equipment grounding conductor in 12 feeders

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wbalsam1

wbalsam1

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Location
Upper Jay, NY
12 meter position 1000 ampere 120/208 3 phase service. 12 feeders that go out to 12 storefronts in the bottom of a 5 story hotel (different service) and not one with an equipment grounding conductor. All schedule 40 pvc and three phases with a grounded conductor...no EGC. Been this way since 1980. Unbelievable. :-? :mad:
 
ultramegabob said:
are you supposed to fix this?
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Yes, in the sense that I am the electrical inspector for one storefront that has changed it's computed load and I observed no EGC while looking in the panel. I got in touch with the poco and building official and together we're insisting that the one store come up to code immediately and we're working out the details with the hotel chain to remediate the rest asap.
 
wbalsam1 said:
Yes, in the sense that I am the electrical inspector for one storefront that has changed it's computed load and I observed no EGC while looking in the panel. I got in touch with the poco and building official and together we're insisting that the one store come up to code immediately and we're working out the details with the hotel chain to remediate the rest asap.
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will they have to re-pull everything, or will they allow a "bend the rules" fix? like bonding to the structure at the panel and driving ground rod/rods?
 
ultramegabob said:
will they have to re-pull everything, or will they allow a "bend the rules" fix? like bonding to the structure at the panel and driving ground rod/rods?
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I want the fix to be pulling in EGC's. I don't want a ground-fault trying to clear through high-resistance paths like driven ground rods and building steel. :smile: I want the fault carried back in the conduit with the other circuit conductors and properly terminated at the neutral bus in the service equipment. Fault current dividing itself all through the building steel and ground rods might not provide enough amperage to operate overcurrent devices.
 
wbalsam1 said:
I want the fix to be pulling in EGC's. I don't want a ground-fault trying to clear through high-resistance paths like driven ground rods and building steel. :smile: I want the fault carried back in the conduit with the other circuit conductors and properly terminated at the neutral bus in the service equipment. Fault current dividing itself all through the building steel and ground rods might not provide enough amperage to operate overcurrent devices.
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Im guessing you cant just pull past whats there, you will probly have to pull everything out and pull them back in. is the conduit sized large enough?
 
ultramegabob said:
Im guessing you cant just pull past whats there, you will probly have to pull everything out and pull them back in. is the conduit sized large enough?
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They'll have to pull out and pull back in. The conduit is mostly 3" schedule 40. Plenty of room. Nearly every feeder is 150 amp.
 
wbalsam1 said:
I want the fix to be pulling in EGC's. I don't want a ground-fault trying to clear through high-resistance paths like driven ground rods and building steel. :smile: I want the fault carried back in the conduit with the other circuit conductors and properly terminated at the neutral bus in the service equipment. Fault current dividing itself all through the building steel and ground rods might not provide enough amperage to operate overcurrent devices.
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I agree with everything you say... except the phrase, "I want"

However, the only NEC compliant fix I see is the EGCs.
 
wbalsam1 said:
They'll have to pull out and pull back in. The conduit is mostly 3" schedule 40. Plenty of room. Nearly every feeder is 150 amp.
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gettin all those cables pulled out, pulled back in, and re-landed where they were after they have been cut to length and bent, and 20 years of sitting getting a set in the wire should be loads of fun! not to mention they probley used a ton of lube when they pulled them in, that is now probley rock....
 
JohnJ0906 said:
I agree with everything you say... except the phrase, "I want"

However, the only NEC compliant fix I see is the EGCs.
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You're absolutely right. It isn't about what I "want", it's about what must be done.
 
ultramegabob said:
gettin all those cables pulled out, pulled back in, and re-landed where they were after they have been cut to length and bent, and 20 years of sitting getting a set in the wire should be loads of fun! not to mention they probley used a ton of lube when they pulled them in, that is now probley rock....
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Yes, and add to that the fact that this 1,000 ampere service is actually located with it's front in a required exit egress route, and the job will most likely be done a store at a time with the service energized.
 
Have you checked the other end of these feeders?
What ground-fault path are they using? EGC to neutral at the sub-panels? Building steel? Nothing?

Not that it could be compliant, just a morbid curiosity.
 
JohnJ0906 said:
Have you checked the other end of these feeders?
What ground-fault path are they using? EGC to neutral at the sub-panels? Building steel? Nothing?

Not that it could be compliant, just a morbid curiosity.
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Yes, I've checked both ends of these feeders. There are no EGC's run with the phase conductors and the grounded conductor. Phase-to-phase faults would be taken care of by the OCPD; phase-to-grounded conductor(short-circuit) faults also by OCPD's, but phase-to-ground (line-to-case) faults have no means of clearing. Equipment grounding conductors for branch circuits within the store panelboards are connected to equipment ground bars, but the EGB's have no EGC connected to them. A fault might find it's way back to the service neutral by a BC EGC being connected to piping, but certainly not an ideal route. Not one I would trust.
 
I know this is a stupid question, but I've seen strange critters in my life.
You state "feeders" so I assume there is a main and/or feeder breakers at the 12 meter bank, not just meters.
 
augie47 said:
I know this is a stupid question, but I've seen strange critters in my life.
You state "feeders" so I assume there is a main and/or feeder breakers at the 12 meter bank, not just meters.
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There is a main. The feeders each are metered and go out to storefronts. The "neutral" conductor within each store panelboard is floating, i.e., no connection to the case of the enclosure. :smile:
 
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