No Good Options

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busman

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
For residential services in my area, the only way to disconnect all power to the service panel is to pull the meter (no disconnect switch prior to the loadcenter CB) which I expect is very common due to cost. For small tasks (such as adding a single circuit) in the service panel, I have used 4 methods depending on the spaghetti factor, but none seems ideal:

1) Work the panel "hot". No disruption to homeowner, but not the safest.

2) Shut off the main CB. Probably the best since the only hazard is from the lugs.

3) Pull the meter myself. Dangerous and really annoys the PoCo when they find the security tag cut. (My boss used to force me to do this)

4) Have the power company pull the meter. The safest solution, but takes an entire day or more to have it pulled and reinstalled.

Just wondering what others do?

Thanks
 
Re: No Good Options

Bryan,

I agree your options are the best, but I have never seen PPE used except by the PoCo and then it was just hot gloves (the companies I have worked for specialize in residential). I assume by PPE you mean hot gloves and flash protection. I still wonder what the common practice is?

Thanks for the response.

Mark
 
Re: No Good Options

Originally posted by busman:
I still wonder what the common practice is?

Mark
Click to expand...
I find the "common practice" is not always the correct practice.

The problem is that your other three options are not only dangerous but could also be against the law. Here in Florida, removing the lock from the meter enclosure is treated as s federal crime. It places all liabilty on you as well as your employer. "My boss made me do it" never seems to impress a jury or judge.

Also, I don't believe residential work is exempt from PPE requirements.
 
Re: No Good Options

If an employer/employee relationship is involved with the work, residential work is not exempt. If there is an "independent contractor" relationship between the homeowner and the electrician doing the actual work, it is exempt at the Federal level. I have no idea about most state or local regulations.

Usually, the (sadly ignorant) homeowner is still liable for safety, which is why they want to have a "licensed" contractor doing the work - even if it is an "independent contractor." Most state's licensing laws protect the homeowner in those cases.

I don't have my copy of 70E readily at hand at the moment, but PPE of most residential work should be fairly benign. (Typically HR1 I believe)
 
Re: No Good Options

All,

I never meant to imply that residential work was exempt from PPE requirements. Its just that in 8 years of electrical work (6 years apprenticship and 2 years Journeyman; studying for Master's test this Spring), I have never seen PPE on a residential job. I've even seen a Master Electrician (Virginia) do a panel replacement without pulling the meter, he just taped the undgrounded conductors bare-handed.

I agree with Bryan about the safe way to do this. Thanks for the responses.

Mark
 
Re: No Good Options

I never think twice about working on a panel live. I splice the service drop almost daily live as well (on service changes). I am surprised people do it differently. Probably not the safest though.
 
Re: No Good Options

I work things hot almost every day but I won't tell others to do it. I feel if some one is uncomfortable working things hot then they shouldn't. Maybe they should be doing construction and not service calls
 
Re: No Good Options

How is pulling the meter yourself dangerous? Are ECs allowed to pull meters? Or do you have to get the POCO to do it? Someone told me it varied from state to state...

I've got nothing but conflicting information about working with stuff hot...one of the EC's I talked to said it's good because you can test stuff, see what switch leg goes to what light right away, etc...but my teacher is like
NO--DON'T DO IT. :p Some of my class mates think I'm crazy, but being around construction my whole life, I've just seen panel work stuff hot, and it seems pretty natural to me. :p I just think it takes practice to get comfortable with it...I mean you guys talk about working in panels hot, and to be honest, that makes me a little nervous...but probably just beacuse I've yet to do it...

[ December 08, 2004, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: midget ]
 
Re: No Good Options

You guys are scaring me. :eek:

I have a friend who spent a year in a burn unit and another six months at home from plugging a meter in an picking up load. It was a 480 volt meter and he didn't get it lined up right. When he pulled it back to straighten it up, it fired and burned him on the arms, chest and face. He has a lot of scars and we now require all 480 volt services to either be transformer rated or cold sequence. This is all because of Fred, what will they do for you?
 
Re: No Good Options

Around here the meter can is customer owned but the meter is poco property.So yes a conflict.If your pulling it because it needs repairs or inspection they have yet to do anything to me or any others i know of.Just besure to call them and tell them you had an emergency and kindly retag it.For them to stop you puts them in a bad spot.If they stop you and there was a fire or injury they might find themself in court.Saying all this keep in mind we are talking about repairs not theft.Best thing is to have a chat with them first.I have had them tell me pull it and leave it in a safe place for them to find if its not being reinstalled.We had problems like this in the past year with huricanes and there min. man power.We finally pulled meter and cut the drop because we had waited for over a week and our job was being held up.
 
Re: No Good Options

I looked up the FPL rules before and going from memory no one is allowed to pull a hot meter.

They did have a rule about an EC being able to call in get permission to disconnect the service (dwelling services only) Even with permission you are not to pull the meter hot but cut the overhead drop free first (Underground wait for them)

Once you cut free you can pull the meter, the power co has to be called for the reconnect.

That may not be how it is done in practice but that is what FLPs green book spells out. If I remember correctly.

Not following the rules may be 'allowed' but if the @#&* hits the fan you are going to be entirely responsible.
 
Re: No Good Options

Bob ,a lot has to do with why your pulling that meter.I m not saying pull it every time your working in a panel.But if i am on a service call and my suspected problem is open or bad neutral in that can i will pull it.But i will call them afterwards.Perhaps wrong but common to do.I hardly can just stand there waiting for the poco while charging my customer.
 
Re: No Good Options

Charlie, you beat me to the punch. I was going to reply to Midget and explain that pulling the meter can be dangerous but replacing it is the real hazard because of the reason you cited, but also becuase of the possibility that work done while the meter was removed may have created a fault and replacing the meter applies power to that fault. One must always check continuity to ground of all ungrounded conductors before replacing the meter.

JimWalker, I have also had the PoCo tell me to pull the meter on jobs where they were involved and were to short-staffed to pull it themselves. They always did the replacement.

rhn, its not that I am particularly uncomfortable working hot. I just sensed a contradiction between what we are taught to do in the real world versus proper technnique.

It looks like the answer is to get out the PPE and the insulated tools and work it hot. I agree with jimwalker that there is no way we can charge the customer for up to 2 days labor waiting for the PoCo.
 
Re: No Good Options

My opinion: If I were building a house, I would pay for a main disconnect; I presume the code allows it. Residences in my area have a sub-main breaker which feeds the 120V circuits. No such thing on the 240V circuits though. I have added and removed circuits on both because it is safe to do if you pay attention to what you are doing. Of course, a different breaker design might not be so safe; I never have to apply a tool to anything hot. I am not afraid of high voltages, but I do respect them.
 
Re: No Good Options

The outside disconnect is my preferred choice. We frequently have to do this when people build additions which relocate the meter and the panel is now interior to the house. We change over for SER cable and place a fused disconnect outside. I also like fuses for the service becuase they do not have magnetic issues with large fault currents.

I read the other post on pulling meters and noted some of the comments on how to avoid disruption to the homeowner. We have the meter pulled by the PoCo, borrow power from a neighbor on cord or use generator and then complete the new service next to the old. The only difference from the posts is that we run the SE cable up into the new meter can and out through the meter hole. We then splice this cable to the old cable coming from the old meter can. When tho PoCo comes, they just cut the new SE cable at the meter lugs, hook it up and put the meter in the new can. This saves them the time putting the SE thru the new can. This method is recommended in the local PoCo Blue Book (basically their guide for electricians).

[ December 08, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
 
Re: No Good Options

I just did a resi service change in CT and while getting the permit, the electrical inspector and the POCO told me that I could cut and reconnect but not to use romex connectors on the service drop.
They gave me jumpers and a cover for the meter socket and said not to reinstall the meter. Just leave it hanging under the meter socket. They will come and resplice the drop and plug in the meter.
The inspector had a big box of covers and jumpers in his office.
I guess they think it is safer for us to make the hot splice in the air, than to plug in a meter into a live socket.
 
Re: No Good Options

I guess they think it is safer for us to make the hot splice in the air, than to plug in a meter into a live socket.
Click to expand...
It is but without proper training, you should not be doing it. Our linemen get paid for doing that type of work. :D
 
Re: No Good Options

why would anyone replace a meter with load on it????

couldnt you just shut off the main breaker/disconnect test your wires for grounds
put in meter and then flip the power on??
 
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