No ground to detached structure ok?

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augie47 said:
To some degree you are "preaching to the choir" as I agree if you fed that same building by a POCO service we would not have the EGC. Apparently the CMP saw wisdom in Mike proposal.
I don't have the talent to copy their comments and the substantiation is lengthy.
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I have read that proposal and even had an e-mail discussion with Mike about the rule. We just don't agree on the issue.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I have read that proposal and even had an e-mail discussion with Mike about the rule. We just don't agree on the issue.
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Of course I am 100% with you in that electrons don't care or know which side of the service point they are on.

However while the NEC can't do anything about our countries MGN distribution systems the NEC does have the ability to reduce the number of parallel paths on a property.

Saying 'The power company does it so why cant we?' is like expecting two wrongs to make a right.

The parallel path issue is not a biggie for me. The biggest issue to me (and of course this is an issue with services as well) is that if an outbuilding using the neutral for grounding ends up with an open neutral all of the grounded metal supplied by that outbuilding can be at a very different potential than earth which can certainly lead to shocks and even death.

Having less equipment, buildings and structures rely on the neutral for grounding reduces the chance of this happening.
 
iwire said:
Of course I am 100% with you in that electrons don't care or know which side of the service point they are on.

However while the NEC can't do anything about our countries MGN distribution systems the NEC does have the ability to reduce the number of parallel paths on a property.

Saying 'The power company does it so why cant we?' is like expecting two wrongs to make a right.

The parallel path issue is not a biggie for me. The biggest issue to me (and of course this is an issue with services as well) is that if an outbuilding using the neutral for grounding ends up with an open neutral all of the grounded metal supplied by that outbuilding can be at a very different potential than earth which can certainly lead to shocks and even death.

Having less equipment, buildings and structures rely on the neutral for grounding reduces the chance of this happening.
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Excellent point ! That was referenced indirectly in the CMPs substantiation and I didn't pick up on it.
 
iwire said:
...The biggest issue to me (and of course this is an issue with services as well) is that if an outbuilding using the neutral for grounding ends up with an open neutral all of the grounded metal supplied by that outbuilding can be at a very different potential than earth which can certainly lead to shocks and even death. ...
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Yes that is a hazard, but I have seen a lot more open service neutrals than I have open feeder neutrals.

I agree that the NEC cannot require the utility supplier to change their installation.

Maybe we need a main breaker with a shunt trip controlled by an open neutral detector:)
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes that is a hazard, but I have seen a lot more open service neutrals than I have open feeder neutrals.

I agree that the NEC cannot require the utility supplier to change their installation.

Maybe we need a main breaker with a shunt trip controlled by an open neutral detector:)
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An absence of residual current detector? :)
Actually a good idea if you can figure out a reliable way to do it.
 
GoldDigger said:
An absence of residual current detector? :)
Actually a good idea if you can figure out a reliable way to do it.
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Sounds to me like something the circuit breaker manufacturers will push hard to get into code should they develop such a thing, just like the AFCI's. And they will lobby hard to get it in there even if it is not ready for the real world yet.:roll:
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Yes that is a hazard, but I have seen a lot more open service neutrals than I have open feeder neutrals.
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I agree with that for sure but I still don't see it as a reason for not requiring an EGC with NEC covered work.




Maybe we need a main breaker with a shunt trip controlled by an open neutral detector:)
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I am not sure if you are kidding or not but I can see that being easier to accomplish than arc signature detection.

Don't high voltage substations already use that kind of monitoring?
 
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