No ground wire!

[don_resqcapt19]

Assuming no conductive paths between the two building other than the feeder circuit conductors, grounding electrodes, grounding electrode conductors and grounded to grounding bonding is required at both locations.
Even if there are conductive paths, I would put the bond in at the second building on a system with no EGC run with the feeder conductors. Without the bond you have no fault clearing path, but with it, you have a parallel path for the grounded conductor current, however that same parallel path is not only permitted but required by the code with services to multiple buildings in many cases. These paths would be a metal underground water piping sytem that is common to multiple buildings, a TV cable installation or a underground phone line line installation. In each of these cases some of the grounded conductor current will flow on the parallel path, and in the case of the common metal underground water piping system, it would not be uncommon to find 20% or more of the grounded conductor current flowing on the water pipe.

 

[George Stolz]

How many panels are at the detached structure?

 

[K8MHZ]

Apples to oranges in the way that as a union elctrician we are mostly bending EMT all day and mostly spend our day as mechanics installing EMT and the supporting means for our raceways, building electrical rooms etc.
Then we pull wire through these systems. All I'm saying is that In the 5 years as an apprentice we may not ever get any residential experience. If so, maybe 3 mos. Got my answers from the code book after all. Thanks

I did not get ANY residential experience until after I finished my 5 year union apprenticeship, got laid off and went to work for a non-union contractor.

Residential electricians were trained in a different class than industrial electricians.

I found that as a residential electrician I actually had to have a code book. On a big job all the code stuff is done farther up the food chain but on res jobs, especially re-mods, the sparky has to look a lot of stuff up in order to pass inspection.

As an industrial apprentice I saw a total of 2 inspectors in 5 years. The first res job I did had 2 inspectors the very first day I was there. This was a re-mod in the city and since it was being converted from one use to another a plan review was asked for. I got to do the electrical portion of it. I was still an apprentice; finished school but was working to get enough hours in to sit for the test.

Wait until you get into a house with live knob and tube in it. Two wires, both the same color of nasty. Many switched neutrals.

 

[LarryFine]

Wait until you get into a house with live knob and tube in it. Two wires, both the same color of nasty. Many switched neutrals.

Either a non-contact tester or a solenoid tester plus an extensiuon cord (plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle) can be used to sniff out the ungrounded conductor.

 

[tryinghard]

Wait until you get into a house with live knob and tube in it. Two wires, both the same color of nasty. Many switched neutrals.

Yah and circuit conductors not following each other; throws a whole new dimension into troubleshooting and causes some bizarre thinking about circuitry! :grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Yah and circuit conductors not following each other; throws a whole new dimension into troubleshooting and causes some bizarre thinking about circuitry! :grin:

Right. You have to thing 'wires' and not 'cables'.

 

[K8MHZ]

The first systems used a wire down the center of the attic as the common with hots on either side. Some were 120/ 240 and some were just 2 hots of 120. They were single conductors supported by knobs and tubes. Splices were not required to be made in boxes but it seems they were required to be soldered. When an outlet in a wall was being fed, one conductor would be on one side of the space between the studs and the other would be on the other side. I have seen many structures with nearly 100 year old wiring still intact and it looked to me like the idea was to keep the CCC's as far away from each other as possible and never coming in contact with anything but non-flammable materials. Even the wall drops were on knobs which kept the CCC's stood off from the studs. I wonder what it was like to be an electrician back then.

About 4 years ago I looked at an 8 unit apartment with the meters and panels in the basement. There was a sticker on the fuse panel with the date the panel was changed from being fed with DC to being fed with AC. 1926 I believe.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Apples to oranges in the way that as a union elctrician we are mostly bending EMT all day and mostly spend our day as mechanics installing EMT and the supporting means for our raceways, building electrical rooms etc.
Then we pull wire through these systems. All I'm saying is that In the 5 years as an apprentice we may not ever get any residential experience. If so, maybe 3 mos. Got my answers from the code book after all. Thanks

Good Luck!

 

[K8MHZ]

Good Luck!

One thing you DO learn in the NJATC Apprenticeship is how to look stuff up in the code book.

 

[hurk27]

The bond will take place at the service panel.
When at subpanel, rods come to can/ground bar.

Not when you only have a 3-wire feeder to a out building, is is imperative to provide a neutral to EGC connection via a main bonding jumper. See Dons post below:

Assuming no conductive paths between the two building other than the feeder circuit conductors, grounding electrodes, grounding electrode conductors and grounded to grounding bonding is required at both locations.
Even if there are conductive paths, I would put the bond in at the second building on a system with no EGC run with the feeder conductors. Without the bond you have no fault clearing path, but with it, you have a parallel path for the grounded conductor current, however that same parallel path is not only permitted but required by the code with services to multiple buildings in many cases. These paths would be a metal underground water piping sytem that is common to multiple buildings, a TV cable installation or a underground phone line line installation. In each of these cases some of the grounded conductor current will flow on the parallel path, and in the case of the common metal underground water piping system, it would not be uncommon to find 20% or more of the grounded conductor current flowing on the water pipe.