no mains on 2- family house

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ginogag

Member
added 220v ....30amp dryer outlet for a friend......lives in a small 2-
family house .. 2 seperate old meters...he had a 6 space old murray panel
with 1 space left . panel had no main... 100 amp each panel #2s...there was
some 15 amp breakers with 2 wires on them. so i put some twins. i think you
can only have 6 breakers if you have no main??????? no continuous loads in
the house (more like an apartment) Now the panel (murray) has
1- 2 pole 30
1 - single pole 15
3-twin 15s p.s. its single phase
3- wire ..... its a violation right ...he didnt want to go for a bigger
panel...
Total breakers do not exceed a- phase -----80 amps
b-phase------90 amps
 
H

hillbilly

Senior Member
ginogag said:
"...he had a 6 space old murray panel
with 1 space left. panel had no main"... ...

It did before you added the extra breakers. (230.71)

"there was some 15 amp breakers with 2 wires on them. so i put some twins.... i think you can only have 6 breakers if you have no main???????"

You think correctly....If the doubled up single pole 15 amp breakers were handling the load OK, I would have pig-tailed them together landed a single wire on the single pole 15. Adding the twins put the panel in non-compliance as far as the "Main Panel" designation goes.

"Now the panel (murray) has
1- 2 pole 30,
1 - single pole 15,
3-twin 15s p.s.
its single phase 3- wire ..... its a violation right"

Correct. You now have 8 switches to open...six is the max.

"...he didnt want to go for a bigger panel..."

Sometimes it's not what you want, but what you've got to have.

As far as the load on the panel goes, it's up to you to decide if the panel is adequate or not .
Just my opinion
steve
Click to expand...
 
B

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Most lighting and appliance panelboards are not listed for use as service equipment unles a main breaker is installed. Plus single pole breaker can't be used as one of the 6 main disconnects. Also see 408.36(A) of the 2005 NEC.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
bphgravity said:
single pole breaker can't be used as one of the 6 main disconnects.
Click to expand...

Where is that from Bryan?

What happens if we install a single pole breaker as a separate service to run fire safety equipment?

Not doubting you just curious.
 
H

hillbilly

Senior Member
bphgravity said:
Most lighting and appliance panelboards are not listed for use as service equipment unles a main breaker is installed. Plus single pole breaker can't be used as one of the 6 main disconnects. Also see 408.36(A) of the 2005 NEC.
Click to expand...


What about 408.36(A) Exception 2?
"Single pole breakers can't be used as one of the 6 main disconnects" That's a new one on me...Code number?
I stand by my original answer (unless and until I'm proven wrong).

steve
 
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hillbilly

Senior Member
Gotcha! Were talking about a existing installation, so the exception would apply to this particular installation.
I'm familiar with the panelboard instructions that you mention, but I'm gonna re-read them to refresh my memory.
I still don't understand the single pole breaker prohibition as one of the required 6 (or less) switches.

steve
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
The present code effectively says that if 10% of the breakers are 30A or smaller with a neutral then the panel is a lighting and branch circuit panel not a power panel. Lighting and branch circuit panels must have a main device (although in can be remote from the panel). So in general, if there is one 1P 30A max branch breaker in the 6 circuit panel it cannot be used for service entrance.
 
H

hillbilly

Senior Member
Am I the only one reading 408.36(A) Exception 2, or do I understand it differently than everyone else?
It seems clear to me that existing installations are exempt from the 6 handle rule when applied to lighting and appliance panels that serve as service equipment in a individual residential occupancy.

Oops...Just caught myself. The OP said 2 family house, so everyone else is correct. I think that I see the light, It's install is not legit.
I learned something today, now I'm happy.
steve
 
G

ginogag

Member
thanks

thanks

so your telling me its a violation ....does the six switch rule apply for shutting them off in case of emergency or does it apply for load reasons eg. too much load without a main ...PS the only reason i used twins was because i thought two wires under a breaker was a violation ... friends tell me its not...
THANKS GUYS AND GIRLS
 
stickboy1375

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
ginogag said:
so your telling me its a violation ....does the six switch rule apply for shutting them off in case of emergency or does it apply for load reasons eg. too much load without a main ...PS the only reason i used twins was because i thought two wires under a breaker was a violation ... friends tell me its not...
THANKS GUYS AND GIRLS
Click to expand...
You allowed to make splices in a panel.... try that next time... because your only allowed 1 wire per screw unless listed as so....do you install two wires on 1 switch screw? (I hope not)
 
G

ginogag

Member
reply

reply

no i never put 2 wires on 1 screw ...but i thought splicing 2 wires in the panel and tailing it off and putting that under a breaker was a violation but i guess not
 
stickboy1375

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
ginogag said:
no i never put 2 wires on 1 screw ...but i thought splicing 2 wires in the panel and tailing it off and putting that under a breaker was a violation but i guess not
Click to expand...

it used to be long time ago? but now it is legal to make splices in a panel, its based on the size of a panel today vs' a long time ago, i wouldent know at my age :)
 
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