noalox

[dnem]

UL tests the lugs without No-Al-ox first. If it fails then the test is repeated with the inhibitor.
If the mfg instructors require inhibitor then it is required, otherwise,no. See section 110.3(B)

For any electrical licensed contractor preparing for an inspection, what would the ELC expect the inspector to do if the ELC didn't have manufacturers info on site ?

Since deox improves the connection on wire that is known for its high level of oxidizing and sometimes questionable connection because of its soft properties.
And since deox can be applied quickly with very little effort and if misapplied still provides a better connection than if not used at all.
Wouldn't it be best to just always put it on and not even try to find out if that particular cable requires deox or just recommends it ?

David

 

[jwelectric]

David

You have made a couple of statements here that I don?t fully understand and I hope that you will help me to better understand them.

Since deox improves the connection on wire David

I was under the impression that the antioxidant impeded the flow of current and its sole purpose was to stop oxidation of the conductor. Being that the antioxidant is not a conductor how can it improve the connection?

Wouldn't it be best to just always put it on and not even try to find out if that particular cable requires deox or just recommends it ? David

I was also under the impression that it was the termination that required the antioxidant and not the cable. Which cable manufactures are requiring the use of Antioxidants?

 

[macmikeman]

I could be completely wrong on this but I was told many years back that the typical anti-oxidant compounds had added alum particles in the stuff to decrease the resistance of the compound itself. Don't know if that has any truth in it or not but it sounded plausable to me at the time since the person who told me was pretty knowledgeable.

 

[paul32]

Noalox has zinc particles in it.

 

[joe tedesco]

Conductor Termination Compounds

Conductor Termination Compounds

CONDUCTOR TERMINATION​

COMPOUNDS (DVYW)​

Conductor termination compounds are for use on splice and termination​

connections of aluminum, copper-clad aluminum and copper conductors
where used to retard oxidation at the conductor/connector interface. These
compounds do not have a deleterious effect on the conductor metal, insulation
or equipment when used in accordance with the manufacturer?s installation
instructions.
Reference should be made to the product label located on the smallest
unit container for specific instructions as to the proper use of the compound.
For additional information, see Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary
Locations (AALZ).
The Listing Mark of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. on the product is the
only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its
Listing and Follow-Up Service. The Listing Mark for these products
includes the name and/or symbol of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (as
illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word
??LISTED??, a control number and the following product name: ??Conductor
Termination Compound?? .​

 

[acrwc10]

Murray panel

Murray panel

Has anyone seen a panel that required the use of these products?

I have always, like others here, assumed that it was a must to use noalox or some other compound on AL wire connections.And once again you have made me question "why" . Thanks again for that my brain needs the exercise.I changed a main service today and put in a Murray 100amp meter main combo. Low and behold it says "when aluminum conductors are used,the application of a UL-Listed conductor termination compund is recommended."
It did make me wonder if that is a just a recommendation,or a must use?

 

[raider1]

the application of a UL-Listed conductor termination compund is recommended."

This is just a recommendation and not a requirement. Again I have always use NoAlox on all my AL terminations, I guess old habits die hard.

Chris

 

[dnem]

This is just a recommendation and not a requirement. Again I have always use NoAlox on all my AL terminations, I guess old habits die hard.

Chris

"old habits die hard"
Since deox improves the connection on wire that is known for its high level of oxidizing and sometimes questionable connection because of its soft properties.
And since deox can be applied quickly with very little effort and if misapplied still provides a better connection than if not used at all.

Why would you want that old habit to die ?
Recommended or required, why would you ever want to stop doing it ?

David

 

[dnem]

David

You have made a couple of statements here that I don?t fully understand and I hope that you will help me to better understand them.

Since deox improves the connection on wire

I was under the impression that the antioxidant impeded the flow of current and its sole purpose was to stop oxidation of the conductor. Being that the antioxidant is not a conductor how can it improve the connection?

It improves the connection by stopping oxidation of the conductor.

I'm going to make some guesses here.
If 2 identical installs were compared with the only difference being one had deox and the other didn't and resistance at different times was measured on a scale of 1 to 10. . I would guess the chart would look something like this:

nondeox, time of install = 2
nondeox, one year later = 7

deox, time of install before applying deox = 2
deox, time of install after applying deox = 3
deox, one year later = 4

Wouldn't it be best to just always put it on and not even try to find out if that particular cable requires deox or just recommends it ?

I was also under the impression that it was the termination that required the antioxidant and not the cable. Which cable manufactures are requiring the use of Antioxidants?

Point well taken, the correct way to ask that question would be:
Wouldn't it be best to just always put it on and not even try to find out if that particular cable termination requires deox or just recommends it ?

Since all of the junk grade aluminum wire that was used in the past is now gone by code requirement [310.14], I imagine the offending item in a failed test would probably be the lug and more specifically the lack of the necessary surface contact between the lug screw tip or plate and the aluminum conductor. . With aluminim being more pliable than copper, as long as you provide a large contact area and enough squeezing pressure, you should get a decent amount of contact. . I assume the difference in contact area is the reason some test connections fail and others don't.

David

 

[paul32]

Since all of the junk grade aluminum wire that was used in the past is now gone by code requirement [310.14]

Except USE is not on the list. "junk grade" USE is readily available here, and sometimes the only thing available depending on the size you want. To get AA-8000 USE from my suppliers, it has to have an undersize neutral. In a few cases, both AA-8000 and not are available for a given size, with the AA-8000 costing more. The other stuff must be used.

But I would think deox is a good idea even for AA-8000. Supposedly this alloy fixes problems with aluminum, but I haven't seen anything that says it fixed the oxidation issues.

 

[jwelectric]

With all this debate about the use of inhibitors and aluminum conductors what does this mean.
110.14 Electrical Connections.
Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.
The way I read that section it clearly states that if you are going to use that junk then make sure that you don?t just grab something thinking that you are doing something good.

Looking at 110.3(B)
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
I would say that if you don?t follow the instructions supplied with the junk then there is a violation.

Never use the junk myself unless the termination requires it. I haven?t seen a cable that required the junk. If someone can find the requirement on a cable I would be very interested in seeing it.

 

[dnem]

Except USE is not on the list. "junk grade" USE is readily available here, and sometimes the only thing available depending on the size you want. To get AA-8000 USE from my suppliers, it has to have an undersize neutral. In a few cases, both AA-8000 and not are available for a given size, with the AA-8000 costing more. The other stuff must be used.

But I would think deox is a good idea even for AA-8000. Supposedly this alloy fixes problems with aluminum, but I haven't seen anything that says it fixed the oxidation issues.

Are you saying that when 310.14 specifies "service entrance Type SE Style U" they're not talking about USE ? . I thought SE style U was the same thing as USE.

SE style U "shall be made of an AA-8000 series electrical grade aliuminum alloy conductor material". . AA-8000 alloy is lightyears ahead of junk grade aluminum. . One of its properties is that it's not as soft so when squeezed it tightens in the lug and actually stays much much tighter in the lug than junk grade. . Oxidation is more of a problem when you can't get the connection to remain tight and maintain good surface contact.

I haven't seen any studies, but I would be very surprised if they didn't find a significant decrease in contact point oxidation when comparing junk to AA-8000.

David

 

[paul32]

SE style U (also called SEU) is not USE. Here is a picture of SE style U.

 

[George Stolz]

I think that the only way to settle this is for someone to go through and take pictures of some older services, 5 - 10 years old, and see if the original installer used de-ox, and see if there is any difference to similar-year untouched terminations.

I think if it were that detrimental to omit the inhibitor, then it would be required in the listing or the code.

As it is, I will continue to use bottles of the junk (48 terminations of 600 MCM AL in the CT can I finished this week) to make sure that I sleep well at night. If Mike chooses not to, that's his choice.

 

[iwire]

As it is, I will continue to use bottles of the junk (48 terminations of 600 MCM AL in the CT can I finished this week) to make sure that I sleep well at night. If Mike chooses not to, that's his choice.

Snake oil.