Non-Contact Voltage Detector -- less than 100% effective

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Bill_F

Member
Location
MA
Occupation
Former Eng Student, and also electician helper
And PS.... pretty sure I have mentioned... I read all of your posts anyways...
:)
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
You're not supposed to use them to crack coconuts open! :)
Just like your never to use your Linemens' pliers as a hammer. Can you guess were many apprentices get the idea to use them for that. It's right in their tool manual as an illustration with the international prohibition pictograph over it. But it still shows the Kleins being used as a hammer.

Tom Horne
 

Bill_F

Member
Location
MA
Occupation
Former Eng Student, and also electician helper
Well... my (small) opinion... just absolutely wrong!
Never use electrical tools for anything else, much less, a hammer!
Bill
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have used mine to transfer impact to a staple in a space too small to swing a hammer.

But I always check before hammering that am not hitting the moving side of the pivot.
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
A false positive won't kill you.



Many rubber compounds (and plastics and other polymers) are conductive. Tires, for example. They're deliberately made conductive so that any static charge on the vehicle drains away when you pull into a filling station. And even if they are "non-conductive", they still might provide enough capacitive coupling to hurt you. Unless they're listed and have a maximum voltage rating, don't rely on your soles saving you.

The conductivity of tires is increased by adding "lampblack" into the rubber compound. Anyone remember the old days when tankers had an anti-static chain dragging behind them?
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... Anyone remember the old days when tankers had an anti-static chain dragging behind them?
Not just tanker trucks. I remember anti-static strips (rubber, not chain) being fairly popular on passenger cars, especially the ones with nylon upholstery.

Airplanes, too. When there are thunderstorms nearby, draining any static charge off the airframe gradually will prevent it from being discharged violently.

fb_img_1439006924672-jpg.14302
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
A brother in law to my sister in law (got that) makes plastic wadding for shotgun shells. He showed me a picture of an employees middle finger after sticking it into a barrel of plastic pellets prior to the molding. He kiddingly asked what the voltage might have been. The finger looked like death. Pale with no color. He said feeling and color returned after a couple hours.

I suggested they establish a system to drain the charge and training of "thou shalt not insert appendage".
 

garbo

Senior Member
Right. Non-contact testers depend on the earthing of the system, not unlike GFCIs.
Not sure about GFCI'S on what you termed earthing systems. Every plain Jane 120 volt 15 & 20 amp GFCI that I played with works great on both grounded & say an ungrounded system from some power supplies. The ones that I took apart all used a torrid coil to measure current unbalance. None of these GFCI receptacles had any points tied to ground screw terminal.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Not sure about GFCI'S on what you termed earthing systems. Every plain Jane 120 volt 15 & 20 amp GFCI that I played with works great on both grounded & say an ungrounded system from some power supplies. The ones that I took apart all used a torrid coil to measure current unbalance. None of these GFCI receptacles had any points tied to ground screw terminal.
Correct, but on an small ungrounded system it is almost impossible for a single ground fault to create enough unbalance current to cause the GFCI to trip. However in that case, the single ground fault is also not a shock hazard.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Not sure about GFCI'S on what you termed earthing systems. Every plain Jane 120 volt 15 & 20 amp GFCI that I played with works great on both grounded & say an ungrounded system from some power supplies. The ones that I took apart all used a torrid coil to measure current unbalance. None of these GFCI receptacles had any points tied to ground screw terminal.
GFCI are commonly used on mobile and portable generators and when powering Cord & Plug connected loads there is no requirement to ground them. In that use the neutral must be bonded to the frame of the generator as required by the US National Electrical Code (NEC) And the regulations promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act for work place safety. In such use the GFCI will still sense the imbalance of current from the normally current carrying conductors and open the circuit just as quickly as it would on a grounded system. don_resqcapt19 is correct about GFCIs used on unbonded generators and that introduces a special hazard. A fault in an unbonded generator, or one of it's cord and plug connected loads, would energize the frame of the generator at an unknown voltage to ground but if the connected load or the generator were to become grounded by accident then it would still be energized and contact to it and the earth at the same time could cause the person in contact with it to complete the circuit. The most dangerous example of that which I have seen was that a metal stand worksite flood light which was standing in mud on reinforced concrete. The generator was hundreds of feet away from the faulted stand light. The voltage drop through the very long extension cord and portable outlet panel was enough to get the fella that went to shut it down at the end of the swing shift a serious shock. The fire station and the ambulance's Automated External Defibrillator were only a half mile away and reached him quickly in spite of the backed up traffic by running the opposing traffic side of the road to avoid going to the next exit and getting through the backed up traffic. The contractor was charged a very large fine because they had no insured equipment grounding conductor continuity program in place which would have detected the open bonding jumper at the generator.

Tom Horne
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
GFCI are commonly used on mobile and portable generators and when powering Cord & Plug connected loads there is no requirement to ground them. In that use the neutral must be bonded to the frame of the generator as required by the US National Electrical Code (NEC) And the regulations promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act for work place safety. In such use the GFCI will still sense the imbalance of current from the normally current carrying conductors and open the circuit just as quickly as it would on a grounded system. don_resqcapt19 is correct about GFCIs used on unbonded generators and that introduces a special hazard. A fault in an unbonded generator, or one of it's cord and plug connected loads, would energize the frame of the generator at an unknown voltage to ground but if the connected load or the generator were to become grounded by accident then it would still be energized and contact to it and the earth at the same time could cause the person in contact with it to complete the circuit. The most dangerous example of that which I have seen was that a metal stand worksite flood light which was standing in mud on reinforced concrete. The generator was hundreds of feet away from the faulted stand light. The voltage drop through the very long extension cord and portable outlet panel was enough to get the fella that went to shut it down at the end of the swing shift a serious shock. The fire station and the ambulance's Automated External Defibrillator were only a half mile away and reached him quickly in spite of the backed up traffic by running the opposing traffic side of the road to avoid going to the next exit and getting through the backed up traffic. The contractor was charged a very large fine because they had no insured equipment grounding conductor continuity program in place which would have detected the open bonding jumper at the generator.

Tom Horne
No, an accidental connection to ground of a conductor to an ungrounded system simply creates a grounded system. There would be no voltage to ground from the metal parts of the faulted equipment under that condition. Now if you touch the faulted conductor and earth, there would be no shock hazard, but if you touch an unfaulted conductor and the earth you would receive a line to line shock.

I don't see how a single faulted conductor on an ungrounded system could create the shock hazard that you have described. If the system was actually ungrounded, it would simply become a grounded system and the only possible shock to earth would be from the voltage drop between the point of fault and the point of worker contact. You indicate the fault was at the light stand and the worker was shocked by touching the light stand and the earth. I don't see that a being possible with an ungrounded supply. The voltage drop on the line side of the fault does not enter into this. The ground fault drives the voltage of that conductor to zero with respect to the earth at the point of the fault.
 

JoeNorm

Senior Member
Location
WA
Whats the trick to getting these things to work on TR receptacles? I have the Santronic and I cannot stab it in to be able to register voltage.
 
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