Non passive motion sensors.

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toaduu

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Why have manufacturers eliminated the neutral lead wire from 120v indoor occupancy sensors? Nowadays the only motion sensors I can find with a neutral are on security lights.

I have designed lighting circuits which have a bank of switches feed by a single sensor. Unfortunately, if all the manual switches are in the off position the sensor will be de-energized resulting in delays when a switch is turned on.

Power--------sensor---------switches-----------lights
My customer wants the lights to perform normally but turn off if they leave. Customer wants standard switches, not individual sensors.

Am I the only one wiring lighting circuits in this manor?
Do any manufactures still make indoor sensors with neutral leads?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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What is the neutral doing for you? :-?

Why not have the motion at the first switch position in the chain, then it will always be energized. The lights would be shut off after that, but the motion would still have power.
 

toaduu

Member
Let me try to clarify

Let me try to clarify

George Stolz said:
What is the neutral doing for you? :-?
I need a constant load or preferably a ?neutral? to power the electronics inside the motion sensor.

George Stolz said:
Why not have the motion at the first switch position in the chain, then it will always be energized. The lights would be shut off after that, but the motion would still have power.

The ?Passive Motion Sensor? is shown at the 1st switch position in the chain, and it will always have power, however; if the switches in the 2nd position are turned off simultaneously the motion sensor will not function smoothly because it would not have a complete circuit.

Power------Sensor------Switches,on-------Lights----Neutral.
Power------Sensor------Switches,off Lights----Neutral
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
toaduu said:
I need a constant load or preferably a ?neutral? to power the electronics inside the motion sensor.
If the motion doesn't have a neutral, then it doesn't need one...? :-?



The ?Passive Motion Sensor? is shown at the 1st switch position in the chain, and it will always have power, however; if the switches in the 2nd position are turned off simultaneously the motion sensor will not function smoothly because it would not have a complete circuit.

Power------Sensor------Switches,on-------Lights----Neutral.
Power------Sensor------Switches,off Lights----Neutral
I have a commercial grade occupancy sensor at my house that operates in that way. I can hear it switching when the loads are disconnected from it. If I walk out of view of the sensor and turn the switch so that the motion is controlling them, then the lights are already on when the switch is thrown.

The lack of a neutral does not effect it's operation.
 

toaduu

Member
Hmm?

Hmm?

Ok, I read up on the Leviton $70 Motion sensor you linked to, it states ?no load requirements? so dose it have a permanent battery or something? I don?t understand how it can work with no load and no neutral?

1. Will this device be able to detect motion before my customer flips the switch?

2. Can my customer walk past the sensor then stand out of view of the sensor flip a switch and expect the light to come on immediately?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
toaduu said:
Ok, I read up on the Leviton $70 Motion sensor you linked to, it states ?no load requirements? so dose it have a permanent battery or something? I don?t understand how it can work with no load and no neutral?
I don't know how it works, to be honest. But it does. :)

1. Will this device be able to detect motion before my customer flips the switch?
Yes, but the lights obviously wouldn't come on since the manual switches have the lights disconnected.

2. Can my customer walk past the sensor then stand out of view of the sensor flip a switch and expect the light to come on immediately?
With the one I linked to above, yes. As long as the motion always has power. I have a goofy setup at my house described in the thread I linked to; essentially, when I turn a switch on in the back of the house (well out of sight of the motion) the lights come on by the motion, when I have walked past it to go to the back of the house.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Not functioning; as in, having to walk past it after turning on the manual switches to get the lights to come on.

He wants the lights to come on as long as someone has walked past the motion recently, even if they are out of sight when the first manual switch is flipped.
 

peter

Senior Member
Location
San Diego
As a disclaimer, you must realise that I hate motion sensors with a fashion.
The real solution is to hire people with enough brains to turn off the lights if they're not needed anymore.
But I will reveal this tidbit for what it's worth: Some motion sensors cheat and use the ground wire as a return [or neutral] to run their electronis. Also some of the "better" ones have some means of by passing them. If you are working on alive panel, you do not want the lights going out suddenly since your slow, careful, deliberate motion will be too slow to be noticed by the moronic sensor.
~Peter
 
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toaduu

Member
peter said:
Some motion sensors cheat and use the ground wire as a return [or neutral] to run their electronis. ~Peter

Really? That doesn’t sound legal to me. I don’t think any regulating agency would allow a product to be designed in such a manor. I don’t think a big company would take that risk related to product liability. What makes you think they use the ground wire?

Ps. Are you saying “some electricians cheat” or “some electronics cheat”?
 
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Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
toaduu said:
Really? That doesn?t sound legal to me. I don?t think any regulating agency would allow a product to be designed in such a manor. I don?t think a big company would take that risk related to product liability. What makes you think they use the ground wire?

Ps. Are you saying ?some electricians cheat? or ?some electronics cheat??
There are some UL products out there that use the ground to make the switch function properly.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
toaduu said:
Really? That doesn?t sound legal to me. I don?t think any regulating agency would allow a product to be designed in such a manor. I don?t think a big company would take that risk related to product liability. What makes you think they use the ground wire?

IIRC from a past discussion we had about this issue, the current on the ground wire from the sensor is in the micro amp range, far below dangerous levels.
 

toaduu

Member
Dennis Alwon said:
There are some UL products out there that use the ground to make the switch function properly.

Interesting, I thought the ground wire was not to be used for anything.

Can I install 100 of these sensors on one circuit to control 100 small 0.07 amp led lights.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
toaduu said:
Are there any cheep motion sensors that use ground as a neutral? Or is it just the expensive ones?

I installed some Leviton ones recently ($50 each) that had no neutral connection, but had a tag on the ground wire that stated that the EGC must be connected for proper operation.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
toaduu said:
Interesting, I thought the ground wire was not to be used for anything.
It was news to CMP-9 as well, in the Report on Proposals for the 2008 NEC:

9-84 Log #1962 NEC-P09 Final Action: Reject
(404.2(C) (New) )
________________________________________________________________
TCC Action: It was the action of the Technical Correlating Committee that
this Proposal be reported as ?Reject? because less than two-thirds of the
members eligible to vote have voted in the affirmative.
Submitter: Vince Baclawski, National Electrical Manufacturers Association
(NEMA)

Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:
404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting
loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit a grounded circuit
conductor shall be provided at the switch location .

Substantiation: There are electronic control devices that require a standby
current to maintain the ready state of the device. This allows immediate
switching of the load to the ?on? condition. These devices require this standby
current when they are in the ?off? state, i.e., when no current is flowing to the
load. The typical design of these devices may utilize the grounding conductor
for the standby current flow. These products are commonly used for lighting
control.

In many, if not most installations, a grounded conductor is not provided in
the switch box. This forces the design of these control devices to utilize the
grounding conductor to conduct the standby current. This has been tacitly
acknowledged as an operational necessity by a number of UL Standards, which
permit up to a 0.5 ma ground leakage current. The design of the devices
available on the market today use this ground leakage provision in the UL
standard as the means for providing a path for the standby current that is
required for the operation of the product.

The lack of a grounded conductor in the switch box forces the use of the
grounding conductor for the operation of the device. Product designers have no
reasonable option but to accommodate the lack of a grounded conductor by
relying on the grounding conductor. Installers will continue to use the
grounding conductor in lieu of the grounded conductor when there is no
grounded conductor available in the switch box.

Many lighting control devices are installed as a means of realizing significant
energy savings associated with the control of lighting circuits. Due to
escalating energy costs and the increased recognition and adoption of energy
saving codes, it is expected that there will be a substantial increase in the
installation of these products. In order to promote the use of these products, the
NEC should recognize an installation practice that requires the appropriate
circuit conductor to be available for the standby operation of the control device.

Although the current design of many lighting control devices relies on the
grounding conductor for conducting current, adopting this proposed
requirement will ensure that future designs will take advantage of the presence
of the grounded conductor in the switch box and no longer compel the design
of the product or installation practice to use the grounding conductor to
conduct the standby current. The availability of a grounded conductor will also
promote the design of many new and improved lighting control products.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The proposed requirement is a design issue and is the
responsibility of the installer, and the associated cost should be a choice of the
consumer, not the code panel. See 90.1(B) and (c)

Switches with grounded circuit connections should only be used where a
grounded conductor is present. These devices should not be connected to
equipment grounding conductors per Part VI of Article 250.
The panel agrees that this is a concern but that a more appropriate solution
would be to require manufacturers of products needing additional grounded
conductors to provide appropriate, clearly visible warnings and instructions on
their packaging and installation instructions.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 6 Negative: 4
Ballot Not Returned: 1 de Vega, H.
Explanation of Negative:
BELISLE, R.: My notes indicate that CMP-9 was surprised to learn that
manufacturers are designing switches that operate with low level currents
flowing on the grounded conductor, and when that is not present, by default,
the equipment grounding conductor. This appears entirely legal and deemed
safe in a singular installation. The problem lies in the fact that most aftermarket
switches and homeowner modifications are not installed in just one location,
but several throughout the home and the combined effect of what was a safe
minimal current on the EGC is now additive to create a serious shock hazard.
The submitter?s proposal is all-inclusive and probably not necessary for
commercial and industrial applications, as wiring methods would typically
permit the addition of a grounded conductor to those specific modified
locations. The proposal has merit and should be considered with the additional
language of ? In dwelling locations, switches controlling lighting loads
supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit?
LEMAY, T.: There are many safety and convenience benefits to the electrical
system of an occupancy having a grounded circuit conductor available at an
outlet control point when the control point is wired using a cabled wiring
method.
There are many control devices currently on the market, such as occupancy
sensors, power line carrier devices, and surely more to come that require the
use of a grounded circuit conductor for their operation.
There are instances where the branch circuit could be extended from the
switch box to provide additional outlets or power to other loads in the area of
the switch. There are also instances where the installation of a multi-level
controlled luminaire or paddle fan/light assembly are not contemplated at rough
in and installed after the fact by the end user, requiring an additional insulated
control conductor. This rule would provide for a means to accomplish that task.
I have seen where the equipment grounding conductor was used as a part of a
switch loop system.
Additionally, devices that use the equipment grounding conductor for their
operation produce objectionable leakage current in the ground return path.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
The ROP was too long, here is the rest associated with that proposal:

OSBORNE, R.: The consensus among panel members is that, for those
devices requiring connection to a grounded conductor, it is imperative that a
grounded conductor be available at the device location. This position is in full
alignment with Article 250 and a long-standing position held by panel 5.
It should be noted that the panel statement is consistent with past decisions by
panel 9, which concluded that it is the responsibility of the installer to ensure
the appropriate conductors are provided at the device box. However, the panel
fails to acknowledge that, without a grounded conductor in a switch box being
mandated in Article 404, improper use of the equipment grounding conductor
is commonplace when these products are installed retroactively.
It appears that there is a potential correlation issue in that the requirements in
Article 250 cannot be satisfied by the decision by panel 9 not to address
grounded conductors in switch loops. The TCC needs to take a closer look at
this proposal and accompanying comments as they relate to satisfying the
requirements of Article 250 to determine if the Code is providing adequate
guidance regarding the installation of devices requiring the use of the grounded conductor.
The reality is that control devices which need a return path for inboard control
circuitry are becoming much more prevalent in both residential and commercial
installations. As the use of these devices increase, the likelihood that
unintended current will make its way onto equipment grounding conductors
increases. Additionally, proliferation of these devices also increases the
likelihood that, based on the cumulative effects of control currents, higher
levels of unintended current flow will be present on the equipment grounding
conductor.
Acknowledging the ever-increasing use of these devices, the panel should
have concluded that it is time to readdress this issue. A step in the right
direction would be to ?Accept in Principle? the proposal, with additional
language that limits the new requirement to only those installations where it is
impractical to add the grounded conductor at a future date. The reality of such
an exception is that, in most installations where a cable wiring method is used,
the grounded conductor will be required. This would include the majority of
residential applications where the homeowner, unaware of the safety issues
related to current flow on the equipment grounding conductor, would have a
grounded conductor available at all switch locations which control lighting
loads. This exception would have the opposite affect in most commercial
applications where raceways are employed and trained electrical workers
appreciate the needed for a grounded conductor. It is in these applications, due
to the presence of a raceway, that the installer has the ability to install the
required conductor without damage to the building structure or building finish.
To address the submitters concerns, the following text is offered for
consideration:
Add text to read as follows:
404.2 Switch Connections
(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting
loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit
conductor shall be provided at the switch location.
Exception: Grounded conductors shall not be required in installations where it
is possible to install conductors into the device boxes without damaging the
building structure or building finish.
RUPP, B.: Occupancy sensors are permitted by UL773A to have a current of
up to 0.5 ma on the grounding conductor. This is allowed because the operation
of an occupancy sensor requires a low level standby current. The standard
permits this current on the grounding conductor because in a typical installation
there is no grounded circuit conductor in the switch box which can be used as
the return conductor for the standby current. An occupancy sensor can be
installed in any switch location. It is impractical to expect the customer or
installer to anticipate all instances where an occupancy sensor will be installed.
Accepting this proposal will insure that a grounded conductor is available at all
switch locations which will allow occupancy sensors to use the grounded
conductor for conducting standby current instead of using the equipment
grounding conductor.
Comment on Affirmative:
HARTWELL, F.: On another proposal (9-60) this panel member took
considerable pains to point out the essential requirement of electrical inspection
as a component of the electrical safety system. This proposal provides a perfect
opportunity to bring in the third component, that of a set of product standards
that assure that products used in electrical systems have been manufactured to
work in the context of the NEC, which is the installation code. With the correct
markings and instructions, these products will be selected and installed, and the
systems designed, so the equipment grounding system will not become a
routine circuit conductor. It was established at the panel meeting that the
applicable standards are already in the process of modification in this area.
 
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