Not in my town... again!

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Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
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The Sooner Nation
We have a guy who owns a few self storage places that has us wiring his new buildings. His newest place is in a jursidction that we don't do much work in because of the drive. But, hey, he's a good customer.

Just like the all the others that we have wired, we installed two circuits for general lighting using M/C and installed a meter and a NEMA 3 panel with only two 20-amp breakers. Per 230.71

Failed the inspection today. Why? Because the six circuit panel is capable of expanding to twelve!?! You have got to be kidding me... I called city hall and the guy says, "That's the way we interpret it here".

Now, we gotta send a guy down there to add a main breaker and pay for a re-inspection. Cheese & Crackers! And, the only thing that would satisfy their interpretation would be a 2/4 panel!
 
I haven't been failed for that but have had an issue with it. The inspector even showed me the part of the NEC (2005) that covered it. Sorry, but I don't have that as a reference. What I did do was to put a disconnect box in separate from the sub-panel and he was happy with it.
 
It either has 6 disconnects or it doesn't. The panel could have a million spaces and it would be compliant with only two breakers installed. Somebody said before that the job of the inspector is to "inspect, not expect".

I'm not sure what the solution is when you run into these inspectors that are kings of their town with their own made-up set of rules other than do what they want or appeal.
 
And if you jerry rig the 6/12 you could have 13 or 20 CBs. Nothing will stop a hack bent on completing his work, with no care for the NEC.
 
Can you put breaker locks on the breakers feeding these panels? Would that be compliant? How about those ac disconnects that have the pullout for the ac unit and some sort of receptacle attatchment?
 
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mdshunk said:
It either has 6 disconnects or it doesn't. The panel could have a million spaces and it would be compliant with only two breakers installed.
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Marc, some of those small panels are not suitible for service equipment unless a main is installed. I've gotten burned by not reading closely the listing lables in the panels. It will only be compliant if you follow the panel's listing.

A Square D that I use comes to mind. I have to read it every time just to be sure.
 
The panel is a Cutler Hammer "BR" with main lug. It would be easy enough to install a main (and screw it down), but that's not the point. What bothers me is the time, the gas, the extra parts expense, the re-inspect fee, on a job that only failed in the mind of a bureaucrat disguised as an inspector. :mad:
 
Your install is legal,that we all know.What you should do is keep track of the total cost to shut them up for now and then file apeal.If you win that then file lawsuit.Backing down never fixes anything.Perhaps try inviting him to the forum.
His concern is what could be added in future but thats not how nec works.Your legal now.After you leave is not your problem or his.
 
The panel is a 6 / 12 so you can either use 6 lighting or outlet loads.
Or 6 two pole equpment service loads .

You need to tell that inspector to get with the program. The panel should be labled. Suitable for service equipment when not used for branch circuit loads.

If the inspector checked every thing at what somebody could do, he's crazy it just does not make any sense.
 
Dont feel bad I just had an inspector tell me that the heat detector in the attic needs to be interconnected with the other smokes in the house. When I asked him why and what article all he said is "what if theres a fire in the attic how will the people know. I said to him then why doesnt the code just want a smoke detector in the attic? No response. Im still new so I didnt think it was worth the call to the DCA.
 
tonyou812 said:
Dont feel bad I just had an inspector tell me that the heat detector in the attic needs to be interconnected with the other smokes in the house. When I asked him why and what article all he said is "what if theres a fire in the attic how will the people know. I said to him then why doesnt the code just want a smoke detector in the attic? No response. Im still new so I didnt think it was worth the call to the DCA.
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According to the Residential Building Code, crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics do not require detectors. However an inhabitable attic would. To meet that definition (habitable) it would have to be a space used for living, sleeping, eating or cooking, or used as a home occupation. :smile:
 
UPDATE:

Spoke to the head of the inspections department this morning. Basically he said, He has to much to do and why am I waisting his time with something so unimportant. This is how we have always historically interpreted this, and he not going to make an exception for me. He will not allow anyone to install a service that could be upgraded by the property owner to a point that it will violate could. I should have paid $25 and called for "consultation" with an inspector, prior to my install and asked if my install would be to code. The only choice available to me now would be to change the panel or install a main. Besides, if this is for lighting or outlet circuits, the limit is 2 breakers in a two circuit panel (not a 2/4).

Oh, and I can pay $50 and file an appeal, but he sets as a member on the appeal board. :mad:
 
Minuteman said:
UPDATE:
He will not allow anyone to install a service that could be upgraded by the property owner to a point that it will violate could.
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Everytime I install anything I just go ahead and assume that at some point the owner will come along and screw it up somehow. Given enough time, money and lawyers you could probably win this battle if you wanted to. Would it be worth the sour grapes later on though? Sounds like you are consigned to Biting the bullet. Don't blame you one bit. What happens if you leave it in violation? Is it live right now? If so let them push it as far as they care to go with it. Once they red tag it and get power shut off for something unenforcable in my opinion they would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit big time.
 
Minuteman said:
UPDATE:

Spoke to the head of the inspections department this morning. Basically he said, He has to much to do and why am I waisting his time with something so unimportant. This is how we have always historically interpreted this, and he not going to make an exception for me.(not a 2/4).
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Very unprofesional on his part, AHJ's part, that is......and I'm sorry you have to live this way.

How hard is it to discuss the code issues with the inspectors in you area? Very hard it would appear.

Thankfully, it's not like that here.

Good luck. :mad: :smile: :-?
 
Minuteman said:
UPDATE:

Spoke to the head of the inspections department this morning. Basically he said, He has to much to do and why am I waisting his time with something so unimportant. This is how we have always historically interpreted this, and he not going to make an exception for me. He will not allow anyone to install a service that could be upgraded by the property owner to a point that it will violate could. I should have paid $25 and called for "consultation" with an inspector, prior to my install and asked if my install would be to code. The only choice available to me now would be to change the panel or install a main. Besides, if this is for lighting or outlet circuits, the limit is 2 breakers in a two circuit panel (not a 2/4).

Oh, and I can pay $50 and file an appeal, but he sets as a member on the appeal board. :mad:
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Ask him he would mind you taping his answer.Then ask him what day he cares to meet with you and your lawyer.That boy better find time or i take him to court.Nothing to do with money but lots to do with he sounds like BOSS HOGG
 
Minuteman said:
UPDATE:

Spoke to the head of the inspections department this morning. Basically he said, He has to much to do and why am I waisting his time with something so unimportant. This is how we have always historically interpreted this, and he not going to make an exception for me. He will not allow anyone to install a service that could be upgraded by the property owner to a point that it will violate could. I should have paid $25 and called for "consultation" with an inspector, prior to my install and asked if my install would be to code. The only choice available to me now would be to change the panel or install a main. Besides, if this is for lighting or outlet circuits, the limit is 2 breakers in a two circuit panel (not a 2/4).

Oh, and I can pay $50 and file an appeal, but he sets as a member on the appeal board. :mad:
Click to expand...

So how do you keep property owners from removing GFI receptacles and AFCI breakers that are required? How do you prevent owners from replacing a 15a breaker that keeps tripping with a 30? What's keeping the owner from doing anything that violates the NEC after you walk away from the job? And how is that any different from having 2 breakers in a MLO panel?
 
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