"Not in my town" Still Applies

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I agree....that's why they are more stringent in residential occupancies, because of the reason's I described....Thanks for letting me "butt in" :smile:
 
Mule said:
my comment was that I had read that in a NEC handbook notes, as it was the intent. So I thought as a inspector that enforcing the intent is the obligation of the inspector.
Just my two cents.....
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Here is my two cents on this. I think sometimes, the inspector enforcing "his version" of "intent" is where a lot of these problems come from. I think it is better to just enforce the actual text of the code rather than opinion driven intent.
 
jrclen said:
Here is my two cents on this. I think sometimes, the inspector enforcing "his version" of "intent" is where a lot of these problems come from. I think it is better to just enforce the actual text of the code rather than opinion driven intent.
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Exactly. Particularly in this case where the text is very clear and it does not say what Mule interprets the intent to be.
 
Mule said:
So I thought as a inspector that enforcing the intent is the obligation of the inspector.
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My opinion is that is the Building official's call (or whoever is your AHJ). He should put it in writing and that should be accessible to all.

So much is made of intent. You can argue the intent of every single rule in the book. When you get right down to it, there really aren't that many gray areas or unclear sections.
 
Wow, what a discussion!

I sure am glad that we have good inspectors in our area.

Just some things to point out:

1) Some areas have code books that are stricter than the NEC and are law. In Michigan we must abide by the MRC for residential applications. One town here, Grand Rapids, even has it's own book which is even stricter.

2) I think it is not a bad idea for GFCI's to be used in this application. At least the request is sane and was done with the intent of safety in mind. It won't be long before *all* outlets are required to be protected by GFCI's.

3) When in doubt, it is better to err on the side of safety.

4) The NEC is an absolute minimum. Those that follow it to the letter are the worst electricians allowed by law.

5) I have to agree that, in this case, appeasing the inspector was the best, most prudent way to handle the situation. I hope the EC can bill the additional cost as an 'extra'. If not, at least his expense is prudent and may someday pay off by saving a life.
 
K8MHZ said:
3) When in doubt, it is better to err on the side of safety.

4) The NEC is an absolute minimum. Those that follow it to the letter are the worst electricians allowed by law.
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3) When in doubt, I agree to err on the side of safety. When there is no doubt, there is no reason to make things up in the "name" of safety.

4) Everyone here is entittled to one's opinion, I totally disagree with yours here.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
3) When in doubt, I agree to err on the side of safety. When there is no doubt, there is no reason to make things up in the "name" of safety.

4) Everyone here is entittled to one's opinion, I totally disagree with yours here.
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i agree with pierre here. #4 needs a little more info as what your saying
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
3) When in doubt, I agree to err on the side of safety. When there is no doubt, there is no reason to make things up in the "name" of safety.

4) Everyone here is entittled to one's opinion, I totally disagree with yours here.
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If you could explain your reasoning for #4 I would appreciate it. Do you not agree that the NEC is a minimum standard or am I missing something? I always do my work with such intent and have no problem with the strictest inspectors in our area.

As for #3, GFCI's are much safer than standard breakers. If that was not the case we would not be seeing the transition to their use on all circuits in the future. I know they are safer as I have tripped them with my body inadvertently while doing construction work and never felt so much as a twinge. The worst thing that happened was I ticked off the wood butchers for shutting down their radio.....:grin:
 
Hmmmm.....

Hmmmm.....

Pierre, I have to somewhat disagree with PART of what you said.

"To err on the point of safety", I see no problem with. If you are knowledgable enough to go above and beyond code in a safety respect, I have no problem with. Like my point on switches within an elbows reach of the bathing location. The only thing that protecting the switched leg is maybe an extra $30 to the customer. I see no problem with that, they can always have someone else do it strictly by code minimum.

K8MHZ, I think you are wrong by saying the person who installs to the code minimum is the worst electrician in business. Code is code for a reason. These codes have been studied 100X's more than the existance of your life by panels of very highly intelligent professionals. I 100% agree with you on going above and beyond, but it is NOT fair to say that solely abiding by the requirements is a bad habit.
 
zdog said:
i agree with pierre here. #4 needs a little more info as what your saying
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To clarify, we were taught in our apprenticeship that the NEC was a compromise between the trades, the insurance companies, the UL, so on and so forth as listed in the Code Making Panel, page after page, in the front of the book. The strictest inspectors in our area agree. So far, since I topped out I have never failed an inspection and plan on keeping it that way as long as possible.

The NEC was never meant to be an instruction manual.
 
76nemo said:
Pierre, I have to somewhat disagree with PART of what you said.

"To err on the point of safety", I see no problem with. If you are knowledgable enough to go above and beyond code in a safety respect, I have no problem with. Like my point on switches within an elbows reach of the bathing location. The only thing that protecting the switched leg is maybe an extra $30 to the customer. I see no problem with that, they can always have someone else do it strictly by code minimum.

K8MHZ, I think you are wrong by saying the person who installs to the code minimum is the worst electrician in business. Code is code for a reason. These codes have been studied 100X's more than the existance of your life by panels of very highly intelligent professionals. I 100% agree with you on going above and beyond, but it is NOT fair to say that solely abiding by the requirements is a bad habit.
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I didn't say that a person that installs to code was the worst electrician in business. Far from it, I can assure you. What I said was that if you follow the NEC *to the letter* you are the worst electrician *allowed by law*. Kind of like the old question, what do you call the person that finished last in their class in medical school.....Answer: 'Doctor'.

Sorry to ruffle so many feathers, but as I stated, the NEC is a *minimum*.
 
K8MHZ said:
I didn't say that a person that installs to code was the worst electrician in business. Far from it, I can assure you. What I said was that if you follow the NEC *to the letter* you are the worst electrician *allowed by law*. Kind of like the old question, what do you call the person that finished last in their class in medical school.....Answer: 'Doctor'.

Sorry to ruffle so many feathers, but as I stated, the NEC is a *minimum*.
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Somewhat hard to understand, good analogy, I see. No ruffled feathers, but not sure what exactly you are saying. I like going above and beyond if the customer accepts my bid, and quote not on the code minimum. Is this what you mean, and conform to? Or do you mean an electrician installing to code minimum only does so because he/she doesn't know any better than having to use a book to install?
 
76nemo said:
Somewhat hard to understand, good analogy, I see. No ruffled feathers, but not sure what exactly you are saying. I like going above and beyond if the customer accepts my bid, and quote not on the code minimum. Is this what you mean, and conform to? Or do you mean an electrician installing to code minimum only does so because he/she doesn't know any better than having to use a book to install?
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First off, you have to understand that I tell customers right up front if you are looking for the best price, I am not your man. I don't do work with the cheapest materials, the lowest cost help and in the fastest, most corner cutting manner. If that is what they want I try to waste as little time as possible making my point. Sure, I lose a lot of work in the beginning but I make it up when they get unsatisfactory results. I don't even bid work, all my work is T&M. I work for various EC's and I specialize in areas that many electricians won't touch. I am not getting rich with my approach but I love my job and take an enormous amount of pride in it.

To answer your question, there are indeed some electricians that don't know any better, and even more that know even less. I fix their screw ups quite regularly. Sometimes my pals on the fire department have to do their thing before I can do mine. I refuse to do 'code minimum' and will explain why so long as the person I am speaking with is receptive. I do all my work like my mother and daughter will be using the electrical system for years to come.

So far, so good. The inspectors like my work and I enjoy having them come to my sites. So far, all of them I have worked with have shown that their main goal is the safety of the people using the electrical systems and I really, really respect them for that.

FWIW, I just came back from Indiana where the inspectors there seem to be....well, non existent. While I was down there a guy from Local 697 was killed on the job from a ground fault that probably wouldn't have been there if the system was properly inspected. I saw some pretty scary stuff down there and it made me appreciate strict inspectors. The guy was younger than me and had a wife and kids....really sad.
 
K8MHZ said:
First off, you have to understand that I tell customers right up front if you are looking for the best price, I am not your man. I don't do work with the cheapest materials, the lowest cost help and in the fastest, most corner cutting manner. If that is what they want I try to waste as little time as possible making my point. Sure, I lose a lot of work in the beginning but I make it up when they get unsatisfactory results. I don't even bid work, all my work is T&M. I work for various EC's and I specialize in areas that many electricians won't touch. I am not getting rich with my approach but I love my job and take an enormous amount of pride in it.

To answer your question, there are indeed some electricians that don't know any better, and even more that know even less. I fix their screw ups quite regularly. Sometimes my pals on the fire department have to do their thing before I can do mine. I refuse to do 'code minimum' and will explain why so long as the person I am speaking with is receptive. I do all my work like my mother and daughter will be using the electrical system for years to come.

So far, so good. The inspectors like my work and I enjoy having them come to my sites. So far, all of them I have worked with have shown that their main goal is the safety of the people using the electrical systems and I really, really respect them for that.

FWIW, I just came back from Indiana where the inspectors there seem to be....well, non existent. While I was down there a guy from Local 697 was killed on the job from a ground fault that probably wouldn't have been there if the system was properly inspected. I saw some pretty scary stuff down there and it made me appreciate strict inspectors. The guy was younger than me and had a wife and kids....really sad.
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Much more clear now K8, I back you 200% on that respect!
 
K8MHZ said:
FWIW, I just came back from Indiana where the inspectors there seem to be....well, non existent. .
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Really...were you in the entire state? I did not realize Indiana was so small. Maybe we should or you should contact the state fire marshal and have a general call for safety in the state to protect everyone from such bad electricians and inspectors. I have noticed you are new here and most of your posts are very cynical. I highly doubt that you have experienced the entire state of Indiana and making general statements like this show me you are very niave or just plain don't know what you are talking about.
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
Really...were you in the entire state? I did not realize Indiana was so small. Maybe we should or you should contact the state fire marshal and have a general call for safety in the state to protect everyone from such bad electricians and inspectors. I have noticed you are new here and most of your posts are very cynical. I highly doubt that you have experienced the entire state of Indiana and making general statements like this show me you are very niave or just plain don't know what you are talking about.
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Granted, my stay was in Gary / Hammond. I sure hope the rest of the state is better off than what I have seen. I stayed in Middleville and drove to East Chicago and worked at Mittal Steel Plant #2. I now have a much greater appreciation for the State of Michigan.

So tell me, have you worked in other parts (entire state) of Indiana? If there are better spots let me know and I will gladly go sign the books down there. The people in the state were really nice. The traffic was horrible, but I would rate the congeniality of the electricians in Local 697 as about as close to the top of the list as possible. Is LaPorte / Michigan City any better? Indy is about a 5 hour drive from here. I heard there is a Honda plant going up there and they are having a walk through. Do you think it will hold out until the weather gets better?

As far as naive (that's how it is spelled, BTW) you are the first person that has ever called me that. Indiana is not the center of the Universe, you know. Neither is Michigan, but I feel much safer up here...
 
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