Not trying to argue this point
- Thread starter david
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david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
And before you ask the NEC not require a lamp to be plugged into the Rec. Outlet Nor does the NEC. Require one to put a light blob in any fixture . The same as the nec does not require anyone to use a ground fault protected rec. It only has min requirements to address a hazard not requirements to eliminate a hazard.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
The fact of the matter is, a room with a switch controlled receptacle has no luminaire installed. I don't see how you can have it both ways.
I am not the one having it both ways the NEC requires a switched controlled ceiling outlet in these areas min standard. Under the exception the Code allows a switch controlled rec . (In lue of) Notice the NEC does not allow a fixture with a self contain switch as an option although if properly located would be effective in eliminating the stumbling in the dark hazard the NEC does not allow this lighting design as a option in this part of your house.
I am not the one having it both ways the NEC requires a switched controlled ceiling outlet in these areas min standard. Under the exception the Code allows a switch controlled rec . (In lue of) Notice the NEC does not allow a fixture with a self contain switch as an option although if properly located would be effective in eliminating the stumbling in the dark hazard the NEC does not allow this lighting design as a option in this part of your house.
- Location
- Massachusetts
So after reading a lot of feeling and conjecture I am still left with a simple yes or no question.
Do you still believe that NEC 210.70(A)(1) requires a fixture installed to meet the NEC requirements?
Yes or No?
Forget about your coworkers.
Forget about all codes except the NEC.
Do you still believe that NEC 210.70(A)(1) requires a fixture installed to meet the NEC requirements?
Yes or No?
Forget about your coworkers.
Forget about all codes except the NEC.
- Location
- Massachusetts
david said:
No one disputes that the NEC requires a lighting outlet.
A lighting outlet is not a lighting fixture no matter how much you insist it is.
Glad you did not want to argue the point,
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
The reality here is this though some will not admit it. The problem is the NEC language used in 210.70 is flowed. Their no way that the NEC wrote a requirement into a safety a life safety code as an exercise with out an end. If we could get an answer from the original code panel that had this requirement put into the NEC we would no doubt find that they intended that lighting outlets produce illumination to eliminate a hazard.
They did not just put this requirement into the code so we could tone are ability to pull wire install boxes and make up splices. The rule was an mans to an end
I have proven that 210.70 ( C ) does describe a lighting fixture and call it a lighting outlet. Though as Don has said the fixture its self is not by code definition a lighting outlet and never could be defined correctly that way. An outlet is a point on a wiring system utilization equipment can not be classified as an outlet. The outlet is what supplies current to utilization equipment. If you do a word study of lighting outlet as used in article 210.70 thou not correct code by definition as found in Article 100 Lighting outlet as used in 210.70 ( C ) includes as a proven a fixture. This leads to connect the points along the way if they mean fixture ( self contained lighting outlet) in this first half of the sentence what did they mean when the said lighting outlet in the second sentence.
The same individuals wrote the rest of article 210.70 what did they mean when they said lighting outlet through out this section of the code. What context of the word lighting outlet makes sense through out he whole article did they mean for us to just install boxes and plank them off to serve no required purpose or did they mean for the required boxes to serve the purpose of illuminating areas in our dwelling and their by addressing some hazard that moving around in the darkness presents.
They did not just put this requirement into the code so we could tone are ability to pull wire install boxes and make up splices. The rule was an mans to an end
I have proven that 210.70 ( C ) does describe a lighting fixture and call it a lighting outlet. Though as Don has said the fixture its self is not by code definition a lighting outlet and never could be defined correctly that way. An outlet is a point on a wiring system utilization equipment can not be classified as an outlet. The outlet is what supplies current to utilization equipment. If you do a word study of lighting outlet as used in article 210.70 thou not correct code by definition as found in Article 100 Lighting outlet as used in 210.70 ( C ) includes as a proven a fixture. This leads to connect the points along the way if they mean fixture ( self contained lighting outlet) in this first half of the sentence what did they mean when the said lighting outlet in the second sentence.
The same individuals wrote the rest of article 210.70 what did they mean when they said lighting outlet through out this section of the code. What context of the word lighting outlet makes sense through out he whole article did they mean for us to just install boxes and plank them off to serve no required purpose or did they mean for the required boxes to serve the purpose of illuminating areas in our dwelling and their by addressing some hazard that moving around in the darkness presents.
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- Location
- Massachusetts
david said:
There is an end, the requirement to provide a spot for a fixture if building code requires one or the homeowner wants one.
IMO your logic would require small appliances installed in the kitchen to meet the small appliance branch circuit requirement.
David there seems to be a lot of truth in what Roger posted and that is a shame for the ECs in your area. In your quest to do the best job possible you have forgotten to only enforce the code and not what you think the code means.
Good luck, Bob
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
I am so confused now that I think that I will rip out all the wiring in my house and go back to lamps and candles.
210.70 does not mention the ?lighting outlet containing a switch? until we start crawling around in the attic and crawl space.
The way that I am reading this sentence is that I could mount a toggle switch on the side of a round box that has a lampholder mounted on it and be in compliance.
I don?t see anything that leads me to think that the fixture itself is required to have a switch although most think of a pull chain keyless when they read that sentence.
210.70 does not mention the ?lighting outlet containing a switch? until we start crawling around in the attic and crawl space.
The way that I am reading this sentence is that I could mount a toggle switch on the side of a round box that has a lampholder mounted on it and be in compliance.
I don?t see anything that leads me to think that the fixture itself is required to have a switch although most think of a pull chain keyless when they read that sentence.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
We all could come up with our own design of lighting fixtures of some sort, I?m sure. Getting an underwriter to list them may present a problem though.
Really guys thanks for your opinions. I have actually dragged out ten years of IAEI magazines looking for articles on this subject. I guess for now, I for one am done with this issue. Unless someone can add something more to be considered. I will re-read the post and different commentaries that I have and see what can be concluded by all of this.
Good night
Really guys thanks for your opinions. I have actually dragged out ten years of IAEI magazines looking for articles on this subject. I guess for now, I for one am done with this issue. Unless someone can add something more to be considered. I will re-read the post and different commentaries that I have and see what can be concluded by all of this.
Good night
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I've only skimmed what's been written, it's getting closer to bedtime.
David, I think the code-writers are in an odd predicament. They would like to require illumination, I imagine, but there's so many different ways to light up a room.
Look at the switched receptacle. They don't require it to be provided with a table lamp plugged in. Why not? It would be kinda silly - they'd get laughed at. Another question - what's wrong with the switch on the lamp itself? Why must it have a switch in the premises wiring?
There are many oddities.
As long as switched receptacles are an acceptable substitute for lighting outlets in the NEC, I don't believe the CMP would ever feel fair and balanced requiring an actual luminaire to be connected to it. A switched receptacle casts light no more efficiently than an unswitched one. They don't glow in the dark (hopefully ).
My 2 cents. Which are no more valuable than your 2 cents.
P.S. I have had a fair share of experience with close-minded old timers. I appreciate an old timer who's taking this much time to deliberate on a long held belief, it's a refreshing thing to see, and I mean that without the condescention that seems to give off. I just can't think of another way to word it better.
David, I think the code-writers are in an odd predicament. They would like to require illumination, I imagine, but there's so many different ways to light up a room.
Look at the switched receptacle. They don't require it to be provided with a table lamp plugged in. Why not? It would be kinda silly - they'd get laughed at. Another question - what's wrong with the switch on the lamp itself? Why must it have a switch in the premises wiring?
There are many oddities.
As long as switched receptacles are an acceptable substitute for lighting outlets in the NEC, I don't believe the CMP would ever feel fair and balanced requiring an actual luminaire to be connected to it. A switched receptacle casts light no more efficiently than an unswitched one. They don't glow in the dark (hopefully
).My 2 cents. Which are no more valuable than your 2 cents.
P.S. I have had a fair share of experience with close-minded old timers. I appreciate an old timer who's taking this much time to deliberate on a long held belief, it's a refreshing thing to see, and I mean that without the condescention that seems to give off. I just can't think of another way to word it better.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I went to do a service inspection for a contractor that I did 100 of inspection in the past for this morning,
We discussed the points you guys have brought up in this thread.
The first thing he said is how does this really effect you, we do not finish homes around here with out lighting fixture installed. He is right of course for me this has only been a discussion on code not an application to what has been discussed here.
Then he hit me with this, you might have to change the way you have approved jobs with out the required lighting outlets installed.
I said Tom what do you mean, he said there have been plenty of times that I have installed lighting fixtures and you did not require me to first install a box you allowed me to take the wire straight to the fixture and with a smile he said so you let me finish the house with out the NEC required lighting outlet.
We discussed the points you guys have brought up in this thread.
The first thing he said is how does this really effect you, we do not finish homes around here with out lighting fixture installed. He is right of course for me this has only been a discussion on code not an application to what has been discussed here.
Then he hit me with this, you might have to change the way you have approved jobs with out the required lighting outlets installed.
I said Tom what do you mean, he said there have been plenty of times that I have installed lighting fixtures and you did not require me to first install a box you allowed me to take the wire straight to the fixture and with a smile he said so you let me finish the house with out the NEC required lighting outlet.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
david said:
Based on this post am I to assume that the consensus of the two of you is that if no ?box? is present then no ?outlet? is present?
What about the definition of ?Lighting Outlet??
Now all is left is to find out what constitutes an ?outlet.?
I didn?t see in either definition where a box is required in order to fit the definition of ?Outlet? or ?Lighting Outlet.?
Just what part of a box plays a role in the definition of Outlet?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I would say that the NEC required lighting outlet was the wiring compartment of the fixture, where the premises wiring ended.david said:
IMO, the luminaire can be used as both an outlet box and a luminaire, much the same way they can be both a luminaire and a raceway per 410.31.
David, time to let it go.
It doesn't matter how many Contractors, Inspectors, Wino's, Clergymen, Taxi Drivers, Hooters Waitresses, Proctologist, Landscapers, Block Masons, or anyone else can you talk to about this, the fact is, you will view them as NEC experts if they reinforce your stance in some way, even if it's nodding their head in confusion.
The words that you refuse to acknowledge in CMP-2's statement will not change.
Roger
It doesn't matter how many Contractors, Inspectors, Wino's, Clergymen, Taxi Drivers, Hooters Waitresses, Proctologist, Landscapers, Block Masons, or anyone else can you talk to about this, the fact is, you will view them as NEC experts if they reinforce your stance in some way, even if it's nodding their head in confusion.
The words that you refuse to acknowledge in CMP-2's statement will not change.
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
David as is often the case Roger was able to get right down to the main point.
You are happy to listen to anyone that agrees with you and refuse to believe the CMP members themselves with the excuse being 'these CMP members did not actually write the rule'.
The fact is we don't need to hear from any CMP members to apply the rule as written and the words written do not include luminaire.
You are happy to listen to anyone that agrees with you and refuse to believe the CMP members themselves with the excuse being 'these CMP members did not actually write the rule'.
The fact is we don't need to hear from any CMP members to apply the rule as written and the words written do not include luminaire.
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david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
georgestolz said:I would say that the NEC required lighting outlet was the wiring compartment of the fixture, where the premises wiring ended.
IMO, the luminaire can be used as both an outlet box and a luminaire, much the same way they can be both a luminaire and a raceway per 410.31.
I think the smile was because he was looking at a very strict interpretation of what would constitute a required lighting outlet
And I agree no one is saying you need the box to make the fixture compliant with 410.31 How ever 410.31 has nothing to do with what was being discussed here.
I think what Tom was saying is the fixture not being part of the premises wiring could not meet the technical definition of a required lighting outlet. The outlet would have to be the building wire stubbed down through the drywall. Of course there are other requirements that would not allow the building wiring to be left without terminating in a fixture or lighting outlet box. I think it is kind of hard to visualize the romex as the required lighting outlet but in a very strict sense that is exactly what the building wiring would be.
I?m I advocating that the box needs to bee installed to meet the technical requirement of a required lighting outlet as discussed here no I am not but, I do give merit to his point.
As far as giving up on it, this is no longer an argument for me this is simply a discussion on code language at this point for me.
As I have stated I have no issue with ether way this discussion ends because contractors do not finish houses here without the fixtures installed.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
iwire said:David as is often the case Roger was able to get right down to the main point.
You are happy to listen to anyone that agrees with you and refuse to believe the CMP members themselves with the excuse being 'these CMP members did not actually right the rule'.
The fact is we don't need to hear from any CMP members to apply the rule as written and the words written do not include luminaire.
Once again Bob you bring personal insults since you only have a snapshot of who I am and you seem to be forming your opinion based on a single discussion we are having not the whole picture, I will give little merit to your opinion of me.
But in my defense I had no idea of what Tom?s opinion would be on this subject. Since Tom is retired now from this trade and is only doing side work for a few bucks and is at liberty to call any inspector of his chousing, very much at liberty to call any other inspector to have his work approved. in the past not been afraid to voice is opinion. I thought he would be a good person to have this discussion with.
Some ones character is always open for attacks because it is something you can not defend only time will prove it.
allenwayne
Senior Member
georgestolz said:I would say that the NEC required lighting outlet was the wiring compartment of the fixture, where the premises wiring ended.
IMO, the luminaire can be used as both an outlet box and a luminaire, much the same way they can be both a luminaire and a raceway per 410.31.
Yes as long as the manufacturer listed the fixture Not to be required to have a box.Like some but not all vanity strips are.
- Location
- Massachusetts
david said:
David I do not see that I have insulted you once in this entire thread.
I simply don't agree with you on this issue.
In my opinion you have closed your mind to new ways of thinking.
I have not once said, or thought, 'Boy this guys a moron'. You are obviously a guy who cares about the job and is well versed in the code.
Your character is not 'under attack' your view of this particular subject is most defiantly under attack.
Separate the code issues from the personal thoughts.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
david said:
I am of the opinion that only the outlet for a fixture is required and the fixture is not required to be installed.david said:
When you made this post;
It is clear that you are thinking that the requirement 210.70(A)(3) means that the lighting fixture is where the switch is located where this section says,? at least one lighting outlet containing a switch?.david said:
This is not what this section is saying. It clearly states that the outlet (the box) can have the switch or the switch can be on the wall. This section does not require that a fixture that contains a switch to be installed.
Notice that McGraw Handbook is talking about the fixture (such as the familiar pull-chain porcelain lampholder) not the outlet.
Careful reading of 210.70(A) will reveal that only an outlet is required to be installed in a dwelling unit not the fixture. The outlet can contain the switch without a fixture being installed in lieu of the wall switch.
What I think you are thinking about is a fixture such as the one mentioned in the McGraw Handbook (such as the familiar pull-chain porcelain lampholder) and this is not the intent of the Code Making Panel.
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