Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

[joe tedesco]

Tenant of this rental house installed his own breaker assembly on the exterior of the original box when he couldn't find replacement breakers!



[ September 17, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ]

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Darn resourceful too! When his feeders weren't long enough he felt no shame in rotating his Zinsco 180 degrees on the buss! Never saw that one before! That Main has nothing to keep it on the buss but the friction on the buss. The heal of the breaker is not locked into the heal keeper.

Nice picture Joe! Plus, you just helped me win the bet! I mentioned that it would be helpful to me if you reduced the size of your pictures. The rest of the pool said you would INCREASE (at least double) the size of your pictures just to aggravate me! Thanks for being my pal!

If you take offense to this posting please PM me so I can edit it in a jiffy.

Kudos!

I really enjoy your pictures-- especially now that I can view them on my dinky monitor. My big monitor came in and as soon as the dust settles I'll hook it up and you can go back to mega-pixels. Thank you for your thoughtfullness during this time of new beginnings for me. Oh, I'm assuming I'm the only one running a 14" monitor at 800x600. If not, the others better speak up before you go big again!

Cheerfully,

[ September 17, 2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

OK Joe I can not be devils advocate on this one.

IMO, this presents an imminent danger to occupants [80.9(B) if adopted] and should be taken out of service.

What is amazing is it looks like it has been there for years.

Bob

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

that is the most crazyest one i ever see.. but what about the kids if they stay in the apt then how they will deal with it with live bus bar that is good inviteation to get building inspector fast . and the other thing that i look at the photo. the outlet box on the right side of homemade breaker box is covered and i know that is code volations there..

merci marc

 

[templdl]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Darn, just when you thought you saw everything.
I trust that you are going to compile items such as this into an electricians joke book.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

We could start a new TV show "The World's Most Dangerous Electrical Installation's"

 

[bthielen]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

So, why do we have codes, inspections, and licensing???? As a non-licensed home-owner I don't like the inconvenience of inspections and code requirements either, but at least I know that after inspection my work is as safe and reliable as we know how to make it.

Bob

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Inspection departments don't have the time or resources to check every item on a job. The plan checker gives them a short list of red flags to look for that are particular to the job. The inspector also uses his/her experience and training to keep out a watchful eye. They make a good faith effort within the time alloted to flesh out any code or safety issues. It's mostly an effort to keep the honest people honest. You cannot rely on the city, county, or POCO inspector to find all violations or to find any defects. If you want a complete inspection it's better to pay for a private inspection by a qualified person from a 3rd party inspection service. You can pay them to verify every single connection.

This is not intended to belittle inspectors but is intended to point out the only person that can make sure a job is done right is the mechanic. From there the work is cross-checked by the contractor; owner; AHJ; etc.

To say that having an inspection will guarantee a proper job is akin to saying "the painter can fix it". If there are no red flags it's easy for a hurried inspector to miss violation details.

Quality control and adherence to code starts at the bottom and trickles down through all parties involved. It's more than just inspectors & permits-- it's a holistic effort.

../Wayne C.

[ September 18, 2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[bthielen]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

awwt,

I think you are misunderstanding my intentions. My comments were a sarcasm directed toward those do-it-yourselfers who believe codes, inspections, and licensing are unneccessary obtacles. I get into discussions quite often about this and I firmly believe, with my limited experience, there are too many of us doing this work without taking the necessary precautions and care to do the job right. In the case of the non-licensed home-owner, this photograph really adds support to outlawing do-it-yourself electrical work. I would not necessarily support that movement but nonetheless, it is supported here.

Sorry if I offended you. My intentions were intirely supportive of licensed contractors and the purpose which they (you) serve.

Bob

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

No offense taken here.

The more I learn about electricity the more I realize how little we know about it. Each nugget of knowledge brings forth a new accountability. Ignorance is bliss! The more we know, the more possibilities we can see-- both good & bad.

My neighbor is the best midnight gardener I have ever met. It's incredible what he can do when it's pitch dark. The rising sun reveals his ignorance. His yard is beautiful until the sun comes up. He does all home maintenance at night and he does not use a drop light or flashlight. He's a day sleeper so he could care less.

 

[spkjpr]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

I recently worked on a Sylvania panel and the bus sytem was like this one, 2 ribs for the breakers to pick up on. Were Sylvania and Zinsco relate co's? I was curious because in aour area it seems to be a SquareD, C/H, GE area. I see some of the older panels on upgrades.

[ September 19, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: spkjpr ]

 

[templdl]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Wayne C,
Good points with regard to "Ignorance is bliss!"
This could be a sore subject to some:
My concern is when an electrician reuses or installs used breakers that he has either removed from another panel or purchased from a surplus vendor. Who is responsible for testing and/or the warranty of these products after the original manufacturer's warranty has expired?
Yes, the breaker may turn on and off and appear to fine. But, will it protect? As long as the device is not called on to protect a defective device will work just fine.
Isn't this similar to "It's incredible what he can do when it's pitch dark. The rising sun reveals his ignorance. His yard is beautiful until the sun comes up. He does all home maintenance at night and he does not use a drop light or flashlight. He's a day sleeper so he could care less."

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

I don't ever recommend used breakers, but here are some basic checks:

1. Smell the breaker. If it's emitting a foul odor it's bad. Replace it.

2. Feel the breaker or use a thermometer. If it's too warm it's got issues. Replace it.

3. Do a voltage drop check across the breaker. If it has an excessive voltage drop (I forget the exact number-- maybe .030 volts) the breaker is ruined. The mfg. will tell you what the maximum voltage drop across a breaker should be. Replace it.

4. The buss clip is burned. Please remind me of the exact nomenclature for this-- I can't remember. Replace it.

Any breaker exibiting these signs should be immediately replaced.

../Wayne

PS: Karl, do you test voltage drop across circuit breakers? I know it's outside of your direct field, but it would be a worthy check while you have the panel opened up. Plus the other three checks. What other easy checks can we do in the field with basic tools?

[ September 20, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[templdl]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Wayne,
Those are points. However, will they protect, that is are they still calibrated both thermally and magnetically? The breaker is not just a switch. Yes, the breaker can pass all the test that you have described and look good, able to be turned on and off without a problem and not get hot under load. But, will it provide overload and short circuit protection? As long as it is not called on to protect no one will ever know.
I believe we all a somewhat guilty of reusing used or surplus breakers because of both convenience and cost. We assume that they will function as they were originally manufactured. If they were good forever the manufactures would feel confident to provide a lifetime warranty.
Dave
(I love the spell check feature)

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Right. You can sometimes tell if breaker is bad (with some basic checks), but you can't tell a good breaker. My basic check will tell if the breaker is bad or failing, but it won't tell you if it's good. I don't know of any practical way to field test a breaker to see if it's good.

Breakers are cheap enough. If they ever trip, why not just replace them? At least that way you know they were tested at the factory.

Also, periodic replacement would be an option, and also if any of my "bad" indicators are present the breaker should be immmediately replaced.

I would never buy a used breaker except as a temporary workaround until a new one could be installed. And-- the only real reason to buy a used breaker is if new ones are no longer available-- and again it would be best policy to replace the whole panel-- and that's what I do.

../Wayne C.

[ September 20, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[scott thompson]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Wow, it's not bad enough having that open Bus kit sitting there, just waiting to shock the heck out of someone, but to make the installation 100% B.S., the use of that Zinsco QP plug-in kit and breakers!
I declare this to be the winner of the 2003 Electrical DumbA*S Award!

Just love the way those old (and very used) QP frames react to a fault! (i.e. no-blow Zinsco)

Bus kit just needs a metallic item to fall across the L-L busbars to make "music"!

Boy, that's one scary looking situation!

Scott35

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

FYI: Here is a company that can test breakers up to 3000 amps and they sell refurbished/tested breakers with a one-year warranty:
http://www.aceliquidating.com/prod_desc.html
ACE LIQUIDATING, Alameda, CA.

 

[dcl34769]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

what amazes me is that the tenant was able to find a usable zinsco buss and not the correct breakers.

 

[Guest]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

Originally posted by dcl34769:
what amazes me is that the tenant was able to find a usable zinsco buss and not the correct breakers.

How do you mean, "not correct breakers"?

The Main is installed upside-down, but it looks like the right breaker to me. It would need a clip or bolt. My theory is that it was installed upside-down to avoid having to extend the feeders.

../Wayne C.

[ September 22, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[dcl34769]

Re: Now Then! He needed More Circuit for His Equipment!!

How do you mean, "not correct breakers"?


my understanding of the post is that the zinsco buss was installed because they couldn't find the correct breakers orriginal to the enclosure.