Nuts

[Sea Nile]

I follow a bunch of different trades on YouTube and the best trailer and hitch advice I ever saw was from Dirt Monkey.

 

[Sberry]

I havnt been in to the top end of a bunch of modern engines and I would fundamentally follow instructions but over a couple decades of engine remans, probably 100 or more every head and intake bolt, rods and mains, all call for lightly lubed bolts, engine bolts being considered rather critical, NEVER seen one said shove it in dry.
As I mentioned earlier, thew dry bolt theory is a rather recent development and now has spread like gossip and now we assume its true and accurate which it is not.
I mention in an earlier thread about cement truck wheelscoming loose, we asked, did you oil,,, noi,,, we are scared of them coming loose,,, the problem they are having,,, you would thiunk that is obvious, owner finally mandated they spray them,,, guess what??? Even a couple illiterate drivers could see the logic in that, spray and thew problem goes away, just couldnt tighten them enuf.

 

[ptonsparky]

As a years ago shade tree mechanic the manuals always said 'clean, lightly oiled'. IDR when I started noticing 'clean, dry' Maybe when I became an electrician. RTFM comes into the mix here someplace.

 

[ptonsparky]

Ref video:

When MDSW decided we needed to pull our LR, BR, and Kitchen with us on road trips I discovered that salespersons will say, "Yes your pickup is big enough" even though they knew full well it wasn't a safe mix. I will say the Ford F150 corrected the fishtail issue before I had a chance to respond. I needed a diesel 2500 Ram anyway, right?

 

[jim dungar]

Snapon torque wrench manual, been there for decades. From when they invented the tool.

I think George is a legitimate engineer?

I bet that is a crew of well informed well studied group of experts, part time racers?

Snap-On says to follow the fasteners instructions in regard to using a lubricant.
You might need to update your library.

Item 2, right after use safety glasses.
Tips on Using and Caring for Your Torque Wrench - Snap-on https://www1.snapon.com/display/231...ch_Use_and_Maintenance_09_06_12_FINAL__2_.pdf

 

[zbang]

We keep coming 'round to "follow the instructions" (with a few citations to that) vs. "lube the threads". Why is it so hard for some to accept that there are places that expect dry threads?

More relevant- what do Ilsco, Burndy, Sq-D, Siemans, etc say about their lugs & breakers? AFAIK they all say either dry threads or with anti-ox (I don't have time to run this down right now).

 

[GoldDigger]

The simplest rule of thumb is to stop tightening 1/2 turn before the stud snaps off.

The recipe for perfect toast
Is easy to express:
Toast it till it burns and then,
20 seconds less.
----Piet Hein (approximately)

 

[LarryFine]

The recipe for perfect toast
Is easy to express:
Toast it till it burns and then,
20 seconds less.
----Piet Hein (approximately)

Popcorn, too.

 

[jim dungar]

We keep coming 'round to "follow the instructions" (with a few citations to that) vs. "lube the threads". Why is it so hard for some to accept that there are places that expect dry threads?

More relevant- what do Ilsco, Burndy, Sq-D, Siemans, etc say about their lugs & breakers? AFAIK they all say either dry threads or with anti-ox (I don't have time to run this down right now).

The anti-ox goes on the aluminum conductor not the fastener threads.
To my knowledge every electrical lug manufacturer and more importantly UL testing is done with dry threads.

 

[Joethemechanic]

I hate torque method, Friction of the threads and fastener contact surfaces throws a big wild card in the calculations. And then if you are using a multiplier friction in the multiplier head comes into play, to do it right you have to anchor the multiplier with a properly connected dynamometer, which isn't always easy.

Personally I like the low initial torque method, followed by measuring the degrees of turn.

Most of the time I really go by things like feel, sound, my vision, and on some occasions I do pick up a torque wrench.



I worked with a guy who had one of these cut loose while working on a railcar and damage his most valuable nuts. I saw something that day I wish I could unsee. Hurts just thinking about it

 

[Sberry]

Not a single bolt in this entire machine do they list dry.

 

[Sberry]

All this kind of makes my point,,, it has come down to we have to have instructions and a gauge to train the techs to tighten a screw.

 

[Sberry]

I can see this coming back in a couple more code cycles after we find another zillion seized screws,,, maybe this want such a great idea?

 

[Joethemechanic]

Not a single bolt in this entire machine do they list dry. View attachment 2566385

Do I see steering clutches?

 

[rambojoe]

Snapon torque wrench manual, been there for decades. From when they invented the tool.

I think George is a legitimate engineer?

I bet that is a crew of well informed well studied group of experts, part time racers?

30 year expert licenced racer, full time electrician. Races are only on the weekend.... So i guess part time? I do safety work to pay for practice on saturday then i pay to race on sunday- for a $10 plastic trophy. Kinda silly but better than sitting on the couch throwing stones at people. I just would hate to think that you would try to dismiss those accomplishments because im not a paid factory rider... Im sorta proud of my wall of trophies and yes, the people i work with at the track are very very well informed.
I will not assume i can build a better bike or engine than you but ill bet i could scare the snot outta you at 160mph....
50lbft of torque measures 50lbft of torque around a pivot whether its rusty, dirty, dry or lubed. It is a arcane argument.

 

[Sberry]

It is still 50 but it isnt providing the same clamping force.

 

[GeorgeB]

Proper torque with a proper understanding of mechanical physics will be different from what you accept. Educate yourself. It will make you a better man.

I recognize that I'm over-simplifying things (I think). I worked (1970s) in an industry where we tightened a little more than hand-tight, then used either heat (hollow studs) or stretching devices with micrometer heads (solid studs). IMO, that's the only 100% method.

For the last 35+ years of my career, I've been in the hydraulics world. SAE thread fasteners used in components and their mounting are usually SHCS which slightly exceed grade 8.

To keep the QA and QC folks happy, manufacturers and company procedures have determined and published recommended torque values. Over 95% of the installations I've observed and done are by feel. The only ones I've seen broken were "stronger stainless" (which are almost never that) and cheap low grade product used for unintended applications. The order in which they are tightened is much more (IMO) important than how tightly, as with lug fasteners on vehicles and engine bolts.

MOST European fasteners are 12.9 although specifications often allow 10.9. US standard SHCS characteristics are better than the 12.9, SLIGHTLY. Some of Europe (DIN standards) have COTS products exceeding 12.9 and our SHCS products. I'm unaware of any US COTS products "better" than our SHCS.

I believe it is accurate that every joint in which I was involved that leaked was incorrect o-ring selection.

 

[rambojoe]

Good info.
I just have to go back to the racing stuff... So bear with me. Arguments and opinions reminds me of sending racing pictures to my mom and she would call,crying
"What am i looking at?! Why are you under a motorcycle? Why is your elbow on the ground?! Dont send me pictures of you crashing!!"
-"mom, i didnt crash... I thought you'd enjoy it. Im sorry.."

 

[GeorgeB]

I think George is a legitimate engineer?

No more so than he; my mechanical is all field experience; my degree is BSEE with a nuclear course or 2.

I had good training by really experienced guys when we were sealing 4000 psi 1050F steam joints in a power plant. It's been a while, but IIRC, some studs were over 4" in diameter.

The hydraulics experience leads me to laugh (sadly) at the pressures undersea where submersible vehicles work; we worked regularly at 7,500-10,000 psi. And water jet hydraulics (water side) are often in the 60,000-100,000 psi.

 

[rambojoe]

It is still 50 but it isnt providing the same clamping force.

Yes. It is. I also understand that lubing threads is your baby- and thats fine. Anybody use a torque multiplier here? We also call them 4 in ones. So among other duty's i also am in charge of rebuilding hydraulic breakers, the ones you hear at 6am on saturday... Anyway the head bolts are about 1000lbft on the head bolts so since the 6' tall torque wrenches only go to 600 you use the multiplier and set the wrench to 250 or so and at the output it creats 1000ftlb of torque... But- you still need the 6'wrench and put the breaker under a dozer bucket to keep it from moving. Useless info but its a awesome amount of power!
Next week ill make a video of changing out the bushings in those things... It requires a bucket of liquid nitrogen to shrink it, its pretty cool.
P.s., the big trackhoe breakers are about 7' tall... Without the bit of course.
Big stuff. No lube.