NYC Fire Alarm Taps

[gadfly56]

Just had a meeting with a project design group, and one of the lead designers has a bee in his bonnet regarding the taps for the fire alarm equipment. The project is under NYC building and electrical code. There will be multiple fire alarm panels (head-end and transponders). This lead designer had a project where the EC installed a fused cut out (FCO) and then paralleled the connection to multiple panels as if they were a series of outlets on a branch circuit. FDNY didn't care for that and said they'd have to put a buss bar at the the cut out for the grounded and ungrounded conductors and run separate pairs (with an EGC) to each panel. So from three conductors to five panels, you'd have fifteen conductors running out of the FCO. Is this allowable, or should each piece of equipment get it's own FCO?

 

[peter d]

I have no idea what's compliant in NYC, but did read that all power conductors to FACP must be in minimum 3/4" RMC and be #10 XHHW conductors, and have the fusible disconnect you mentioned.

 

[Joe Villani]

I think this set up will raise flags.

Typically you will have a fused cut out panel (off a main FCO) with individual fused circuits to serve the main FACP and the DGPs.

I have also seen a dedicated fire alarm feeder (off a main FCO) with FCO taps at each floor for the DGPs.

Also remember the minimum size equipment ground for any FACP or DGP is 10awg.

 

[low_voltage]

If I remember correctly nyc allows only one cutout anything off it has to be a disconnect.

 

[infinity]

In the past we've used fuse cut-out panels like this one.

Does anyone have a link to the NYC code regarding these FA installations? Seems like there is quite a bit of varying information out there.

 

[gadfly56]

I think this set up will raise flags.

Typically you will have a fused cut out panel (off a main FCO) with individual fused circuits to serve the main FACP and the DGPs.

I have also seen a dedicated fire alarm feeder (off a main FCO) with FCO taps at each floor for the DGPs.

Also remember the minimum size equipment ground for any FACP or DGP is 10awg.

I think that's the arrangement that got the FDNY's knickers in a twist, although the description I received didn't indicate if there was an additional FCO at each panel in the original setup.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think that's the arrangement that got the FDNY's knickers in a twist, although the description I received didn't indicate if there was an additional FCO at each panel in the original setup.

:thumbs up:
Without successful coordination of the fuses. I can see a short on one floor's panel taking out the feeder circuit.

 

[gadfly56]

:thumbs up:
Without successful coordination of the fuses. I can see a short on one floor's panel taking out the feeder circuit.

Yeah, but it's totally archaic, especially the requirement for a #10 EGC. Modern power supplies don't just short and create a standing arc or something. The Siemens PSC-12 power supply is $3,400 User Net pricing. To say it's sophisticated is an understatement. It will never draw more than 3.5 amps, and if downstream field conditions make that happen somehow, it just shuts down.

 

[infinity]

On our current project the F/A contractor is powering the fire alarm DGP's located on every third floor with a tap off of a dedicated F/A riser for power to each DGP. The riser originates at a transformer fed from a transfer switch that has normal and EM supply.

 

[iwire]

One our current project the F/A contractor is powering the fire alarm DGP's located on every third floor with a tap off of a dedicated F/A riser for power to each DGP. The riser originates at a transformer fed from a transfer switch that has normal and EM supply.

What a stupid waste of time and money.

 

[infinity]

What a stupid waste of time and money.

How so?

 

[iwire]

How so?

:?:?


There is no reason in the world the fire alarm equipment needs its own dedicated power risers, fused panel etc.

 

[wiringny]

NYC Fire Alarm Taps

As a NYC EC who performs fire installations, the fused cutout scenario is gone. Min 30amp fused service switch with separate grounding to SS. The important item FDNY is concerned with is same phase taps for power supplies located on the same floor. So a three phase riser should have never have the same phase of power for more than one FA power supply on that floor. Notification needs to be available if a fuse blows.


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[wiringny]

The dedicated fire alarm riser is than tapped to a fused disconnect switch painted red and appropriately labeled with a tap to the risers EGC.


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[firealarmguy]

As a NYC EC who performs fire installations, the fused cutout scenario is gone. Min 30amp fused service switch with separate grounding to SS. The important item FDNY is concerned with is same phase taps for power supplies located on the same floor. So a three phase riser should have never have the same phase of power for more than one FA power supply on that floor. Notification needs to be available if a fuse blows.


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This is a similar mentality to the "Split A/B" NAC circuits on a floor that FDNY still espouses to.

I'm ok with it.

 

[firealarmguy]

In the past we've used fuse cut-out panels like this one.

Does anyone have a link to the NYC code regarding these FA installations? Seems like there is quite a bit of varying information out there.

Could you tell me where you can source this FCO panel? Cut sheets?

I'd like a smaller version perhaps.

I'm also looking for a service rated 60 amp, 3 phase, 4 pole fused disconnect switch as the main FA disconnect switch, if anyone has a lead on it.

 

[gadfly56]

Could you tell me where you can source this FCO panel? Cut sheets?

I'd like a smaller version perhaps.

I'm also looking for a service rated 60 amp, 3 phase, 4 pole fused disconnect switch as the main FA disconnect switch, if anyone has a lead on it.

The NYC Electrical Code did not amend or delete 760.127 which limits the OCPD to a maximum of 20 amps. Unless you're using FCO's downstream of this disconnect? But then, how do you have a dedicated circuit?

 

[infinity]

Could you tell me where you can source this FCO panel? Cut sheets?

I'd like a smaller version perhaps.

I'm also looking for a service rated 60 amp, 3 phase, 4 pole fused disconnect switch as the main FA disconnect switch, if anyone has a lead on it.

That photo is of a Atlas Switch F/A panel. Note the neutral disconnecting means with the solid "fuse".

http://atlasswitch.com/

 

[Strathead]

What a stupid waste of time and money.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Leave it to the left side of the nation.

 

[infinity]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Leave it to the left side of the nation.

Just curious as to what would be a better solution? A dedicated riser backed up by a transfer switch/generator will provide infinite coverage even during a long power failure.