NYC Fire Alarm Taps

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infinity said:
Just curious as to what would be a better solution? A dedicated riser backed up by a transfer switch/generator will provide infinite coverage even during a long power failure.
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How about just doing it like the rest of the country?

Supply the fire equipment from either the normal power or when available the emergency panels.

I see no benefit to dedicated risers and equipment.
 
infinity said:
Just curious as to what would be a better solution? A dedicated riser backed up by a transfer switch/generator will provide infinite coverage even during a long power failure.
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How about circuit breakers from the local panel, and a 24/5 battery backup like the code requires?
 
Strathead said:
How about circuit breakers from the local panel, and a 24/5 battery backup like the code requires?
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Well fer cryin' out loud, that would just make too much sense! If you have a premises that has an outage forcing the FACP to run on battery, your're probably not going to have anyone there much longer than it takes to evacuate. The fire alarm is for life safety; who is going to require people to occupy a building without power? For police, fire, and various emergency responder facilities, they are going to be on generator backup which will almost certainly include the FACP. If they get to the point that they can't operate anymore, they are going to evacuate as well. If there are no lives to protect, you shouldn't care if the FACP runs out of juice.
 
gadfly56 said:
Well fer cryin' out loud, that would just make too much sense! If you have a premises that has an outage forcing the FACP to run on battery, your're probably not going to have anyone there much longer than it takes to evacuate. The fire alarm is for life safety; who is going to require people to occupy a building without power? For police, fire, and various emergency responder facilities, they are going to be on generator backup which will almost certainly include the FACP. If they get to the point that they can't operate anymore, they are going to evacuate as well. If there are no lives to protect, you shouldn't care if the FACP runs out of juice.
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What about an apartment building, would you expect everyone to evacuate? During the past few years we've had storms that left buildings without power for more than five days.
 
infinity said:
What about an apartment building, would you expect everyone to evacuate? During the past few years we've had storms that left buildings without power for more than five days.
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Required fire alarm systems are typically found in commercial occupancies, and yes, R-2's as well, but frankly, yes. Maybe not right away. I don't know if you mean a 3-floor walk up or 20-story condo, but if it gets to be more than a day and there's no generator on site it's going to start getting dangerous to continue occupancy. Emergency lights have to last 90 minutes, so even before the day is done once night falls you might as well be a mile underground for all you can see in the hallways, for example. Then there's heat (I remember Sandy) and perishable food stocks. I get that people are reluctant to break camp, especially not knowing if the power might come on in the next 15 minutes but at some point you have to do what's safe.
 
infinity said:
What about an apartment building, would you expect everyone to evacuate? During the past few years we've had storms that left buildings without power for more than five days.
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And as Gadfly stated, there are so many more things to be concerned with other than just a fire.
 
I'm not defending the antiqued NYC fire alarm code but having to work with it on and off for many years you have to accept what it is. The thing that amazes me is the amount of misinformation involved. Seems like it's hard to get a straight answer as to what is actually required.
 
infinity said:
I'm not defending the antiqued NYC fire alarm code but having to work with it on and off for many years you have to accept what it is. The thing that amazes me is the amount of misinformation involved. Seems like it's hard to get a straight answer as to what is actually required.
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I get the feeling that, like the Pirate Code, the FDNY treats it "...more like a set of guidelines than rules", and YMMV depending on who your liaison with the department happens to be that day.
 
gadfly56 said:
The NYC Electrical Code did not amend or delete 760.127 which limits the OCPD to a maximum of 20 amps. Unless you're using FCO's downstream of this disconnect? But then, how do you have a dedicated circuit?
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I'm working on some larger projects that necessitate a 60 amp fused disconnect switch.

That's just the main switch that's tapped within 10 feet of the building service switch.

The individual fused cut outs will all be 20 amp fuses, and the solid copper bar for the neutrals.
 
gadfly56 said:
I get the feeling that, like the Pirate Code, the FDNY treats it "...more like a set of guidelines than rules", and YMMV depending on who your liaison with the department happens to be that day.
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It's very frustrating indeed.

Recently I was at the NY Fire Alarm Association sponsored presentation on NEC 760 as it pertains to NYC. One of the FDNY inspectors was saying that despite the NYC Electrical Code requiring Rigid Conduit for Non Power Limited FA wiring, they're looking into changing it to just EMT (or accepting EMT anyways).

My biggest annoyance typically as an Engineer comes when I err on the side of caution and superior product (RMC instead of EMT, conduit below 8 feet not just above, a few additional strobes), and I get push back from an owner('s rep) nitpicking every last item.

Everyone is entitled to save money. But when it's not that much money and it all but guarantees no items on the letter of defect, isn't that worth it??

To those asking about why we still use fused cutouts in NYC....my theory is that it's to give Local 3 more work on the installation and job security changing fuses down the road. Conspiracy theory maybe, but how would Local 3 react to NYC going to circuit breakers?

Now naturally not every Local 3 electrician is in on this, this is just business. Most here agree that this outdated method should go away.

As someone who has practiced outside of NYC, I can tell you that most FPEs aren't knowledgeable enough in EE to tell you what neutral, EGC, GEC, bonding, 3 vs 4 pole ATS, fused disconnect vs cutout, etc. are, and it makes practicing in NYC harder without the help of an EE. So maybe the big name PEs in NYC who are licensed as EE instead of FPE want it this way. :)

Engineering wise, you could say that fuses are better than circuit breakers for short circuit protection. But at the same time until they introduced fused disconnect switches for the primary disconnect (instead of fused cut outs) you didn't have a service rated disconnect for your fire alarm system. So in theory your 30 amp FCO was exposed to same potential arc fault current as your 2000 or whatever amp service you had.

Also by introducing an additional "service", if you don't ground it properly you're introducing potential to ground faults that you wouldn't have with the standard method of using circuit breakers.
 
iwire said:
How about just doing it like the rest of the country?

Supply the fire equipment from either the normal power or when available the emergency panels.

I see no benefit to dedicated risers and equipment.
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-no mistaken/unnecessary outages

-isolated from the normal system
 
firealarmguy said:
It's very frustrating indeed.

Recently I was at the NY Fire Alarm Association sponsored presentation on NEC 760 as it pertains to NYC. One of the FDNY inspectors was saying that despite the NYC Electrical Code requiring Rigid Conduit for Non Power Limited FA wiring, they're looking into changing it to just EMT (or accepting EMT anyways).

My biggest annoyance typically as an Engineer comes when I err on the side of caution and superior product (RMC instead of EMT, conduit below 8 feet not just above, a few additional strobes), and I get push back from an owner('s rep) nitpicking every last item.

Everyone is entitled to save money. But when it's not that much money and it all but guarantees no items on the letter of defect, isn't that worth it??

To those asking about why we still use fused cutouts in NYC....my theory is that it's to give Local 3 more work on the installation and job security changing fuses down the road. Conspiracy theory maybe, but how would Local 3 react to NYC going to circuit breakers?

Now naturally not every Local 3 electrician is in on this, this is just business. Most here agree that this outdated method should go away.
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I don't think that Local 3 has any skin in this game, do you have some proof otherwise? I think that most would agree that a concise, unified, updated code is in everyone's best interest including Local 3. What NYC has now is anything but that. :roll:
 
infinity said:
I don't think that Local 3 has any skin in this game, do you have some proof otherwise? I think that most would agree that a concise, unified, updated code is in everyone's best interest including Local 3. What NYC has now is anything but that. :roll:
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2007 i was going to work in the area .

They had the N.Y.C. Electrical Code printed in a Large Book that I purchased ... With all N.Y.C. Amendments to the N.E.C. written in the

the electrical code for N.Y.C.


HOW IS THERE CODE NOT RIGHT NOW ? I thought it was very clear in 2007 .... I had the N.Y.C. Electrical Code Book .

I am Retired now .


Don
 
infinity said:
I don't think that Local 3 has any skin in this game, do you have some proof otherwise? I think that most would agree that a concise, unified, updated code is in everyone's best interest including Local 3. What NYC has now is anything but that. :roll:
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I don't have proof.

But when Electrical drawings do not have to be filed under 1000 KVA, and Master Electricians can file just like a PE/RA, it lends some credibility to me that Local 3 has skin in the game.

Curious how many other jurisdictions are like this? In NYC, Mechanical/Plumbing/Sprinkler/Fire Alarm/Structural/Civil drawings all have to be filed by a PE/RA without exception.

Again, I feel these two items can be separate -- working Electricians preferring a unified, logical sense, and management wanting financial benefit.

Don't take offense please. You probably wouldn't want PEs having carte blanche ability to be an EC.
 
firealarmguy said:
I don't have proof.

But when Electrical drawings do not have to be filed under 1000 KVA, and Master Electricians can file just like a PE/RA, it lends some credibility to me that Local 3 has skin in the game.

Curious how many other jurisdictions are like this? In NYC, Mechanical/Plumbing/Sprinkler/Fire Alarm/Structural/Civil drawings all have to be filed by a PE/RA without exception.

Again, I feel these two items can be separate -- working Electricians preferring a unified, logical sense, and management wanting financial benefit.

Don't take offense please. You probably wouldn't want PEs having carte blanche ability to be an EC.
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No offense taken. I'm of the opinion that, although once strong, their ability to steer policy is any direction is gone.
 
infinity said:
No offense taken. I'm of the opinion that, although once strong, their ability to steer policy is any direction is gone.
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Yeah, can't argue that. You would definitely know better than me.

It is very strange.

Maybe it's just the damn FDNY then.

It took me a long time to understand that the Building Code is under the jurisdiction of DOB, while FDNY has some input on it but mostly makes their presence felt through the bulletins. This explains why the Building Code has shunt trip for elevators written into it, whereas FDNY is very anti-sprinklers in elevator shafts -- it's either one or the other, and this is how both manage to co-exist.

So what that means is just because you see something in the NYC Electrical code or Building Code doesn't always mean FDNY agrees with it.

What's written in 760 regarding fused disconnect switches is rather straightforward, but the FDNY one lines and various interpretations not as much.
 
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