Ohio NEC version

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dnem

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We have been on the '08 for Commercial projects since 01/01/08, but we did the flip-flop for Residential. . We were '08 from Jan to March, then back to '05 for the rest of the year.

The latest for Residential is that the OBBS ad hoc committee is recommending adoption of '08 NEC [without amendments] starting 01/01/09. . The news media have been critial of Governor Strickland for flopping back to '05 so I think there's little doubt that the OBBS will follow the ad hoc committees recommendation.

We're assuming we'll be on '08 for Residential starting in Jan

Check out this link

http://wrdiaei.org/NEWS.html
 
Wow. Ohio went through a lot of trouble just to go to the 08 without ammendments a year later.

Did the NFPA send in their hit men or something? :grin:
 
C3PO said:
Wow. Ohio went through a lot of trouble just to go to the 08 without ammendments a year later.

Did the NFPA send in their hit men or something? :grin:
Click to expand...

Actually it was the IAEI/NFPA CMP guns that did most of the "shootin' ". . In Ohio, the entire IAEI came out very strongly against the flop back to '05. . On that link you'll see the members of the ad hoc committee listed and you'll see Tom Moore and Tim McClintock. . Both of them are municipal electrical inspectors, IAEI members, and NFPA CMP members [Tom Moore on panel 11 + Tim McClintock on panel 12]. . The 2 of them along with Oran Post [panel 6], run the Akron IAEI meetings even 4th Tues except December. . Its probably the only monthly IAEI meeting conducted by 3 CMPs in the whole country.

Tom and Tim went into the ad hoc committee "guns ablazin" and they did plenty of homework and brought plenty of ammo.
 
dnem said:
The 2 of them along with Oran Post [panel 6], run the Akron IAEI meetings even 4th Tues except December. . Its probably the only monthly IAEI meeting conducted by 3 CMPs in the whole country.
Click to expand...

I just wished we had monthly IAEI mettings around here.
 
My original post addressed the ad hoc electrical committee recommendation. . The latest is that the OBBS [Ohio Board of Building Standards] just voted to go with the '08 for residential in 01/01/09.

There will be a public meeting and then a final vote, but it looks like a done deal.
 
at least they didn't say the change was due to your electricians being too dumb to troubleshoot afci's like GA did; and i'm paraphrasing here. :)
 
dnem said:
Ohio IAEI prez published in the Cincinnati Enquirer yesterday about '08NEC in Ohio
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I like how the article compares the cost of one house to the multitude of casualties. I don't mean to belittle life and property safety, but I got all A's in third grade math :wink:

What isn't being said is the largest cause of these electrical fires. IMO most result from the inferior design of receptacles and moreso extension cords. How many of you have plugged something into a receptacle or an extension cord and felt little insertion resistance? How many instances does it seem like a plugged-in cord practically falls out of a cord cap or receptacle? This is where arcing occurs, because adequate contact for the amperage is not being made, and the results are just a matter of physics thereafter. Cure the inferior manufacture of these and the argument for arc fault circuit interrupter would seem to disappear...
 
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Let's go with his math and see where it leads

"Each year across the U.S., home electrical fires kill about 360 people, injure more than 1,000 and destroy close to $1 billion in property."
"International Association of Electrical Inspectors conducted a comprehensive study confirming the cost of upgrading the home to match the new safety codes to be $160 to $240, depending on the size of the home"
"The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission says AFCIs, if installed in all homes, could prevent more than 50 percent of the 28,300 electrical fires that occur annually."

From here I clicked on "Annual Housing Starts"

1,045,900 single fam
309,200 multi fam so at least x 2 = 618,400
1,045,900 + 618,400 = 1,664,300
$240 x 1,664,300 = $399,432,000 cost for this prevention per year

50 percent of the 28,300 electrical fires = 14,150 "preventable" fires per year
$399,432,000 ? 14,150 = $28,228 spent to prevent each fire

360 killed + 1000 injured = 1360 ? 2 = 680 "preventable" deaths per year
$399,432,000 ? 680 = $587,400 spent to prevent each death or injury
 
dnem said:
Let's go with his math and see where it leads...

"The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission says AFCIs, if installed in all homes, could prevent more than 50 percent of the 28,300 electrical fires that occur annually."

...
Click to expand...
Not bad... but the USCPSC comment said "all homes" and your math model uses only new homes!!!
 
dnem said:
Let's go with his math and see where it leads

"Each year across the U.S., home electrical fires kill about 360 people, injure more than 1,000 and destroy close to $1 billion in property."
"International Association of Electrical Inspectors conducted a comprehensive study confirming the cost of upgrading the home to match the new safety codes to be $160 to $240, depending on the size of the home"
"The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission says AFCIs, if installed in all homes, could prevent more than 50 percent of the 28,300 electrical fires that occur annually."

From here I clicked on "Annual Housing Starts"

1,045,900 single fam
309,200 multi fam so at least x 2 = 618,400
1,045,900 + 618,400 = 1,664,300
$240 x 1,664,300 = $399,432,000 cost for this prevention per year

50 percent of the 28,300 electrical fires = 14,150 "preventable" fires per year
$399,432,000 ? 14,150 = $28,228 spent to prevent each fire

360 killed + 1000 injured = 1360 ? 2 = 680 "preventable" deaths per year
$399,432,000 ? 680 = $587,400 spent to prevent each death or injury
Click to expand...

While we are at it, lets add up the annual cost for circuit breakers, insulated wire, listed devices like those pesky GFCI's, other listed electrical equipment such as loadcenters, etc... you know, all the other things that the NEC requires us to use. :roll:

I bet that total would be absolutely staggering.

There are a lot of people that are a lot smarter than me that have dedicated a lot of effort and time to getting the 2008 NEC re-adopted here in Ohio. The only argument that has been provided against this, and from what I've seen it's been inaccurate, is one of cost. It amazes me how it's infinitely more difficult to convince people that the additional level of safety which includes AFCI's, expanded use of GFCI's and tamper resistant receptacles is worth $240.00 per home.
It also escapes me how $240.00 renders the idea of "affordable housing" null and void.... give me a break.:rolleyes:

Pete
 
Smart $ said:
Not bad... but the USCPSC comment said "all homes" and your math model uses only new homes!!!
Click to expand...

Good point. . Math doesn't work unless you compare apples to apples.

This is how I would redo the math.
My first question would be about the 28,300 electrical fires. . How many of them were in homes that were 20 years old or younger ?

If we built houses for the next 20 years without any AFCIs, that electrical fire number in only those homes should remain rather constant. . Until that number is known, we could refer to it as X.

If we add AFCIs for the next 20 years, the number of electrical fires in those new houses could be referred to as Y.

X - Y = Z
Z is the number that we really need to have.

1,045,900 single fam
309,200 multi fam so at least x 2 = 618,400
1,045,900 + 618,400 = 1,664,300
$240 x 1,664,300 = $399,432,000 cost for this prevention per year
$399,432,000 x 20 years = $7,988,640,000
$7,988,640,000 ? Z = cost to prevent each electrical fire that AFCIs prevent
 
dnem said:
Good point. . Math doesn't work unless you compare apples to apples.

This is how I would redo the math.
Click to expand...
My stab at it... without even getting into the dollars spent side of the argument.

AFCIElectricalFireEstimate.gif
 
I added up all of the purple numbers in the column
"Linearly Projected Annual Number of Fire Averted"

total 37,742

If this figure is correct, we spend $240 more dollars per house to decrease AFCI preventable fires by 37,742 over the next 20 years
 
dnem said:
I added up all of the purple numbers in the column
"Linearly Projected Annual Number of Fire Averted"

total 37,742

If this figure is correct, we spend $240 more dollars per house to decrease AFCI preventable fires by 37,742 over the next 20 years
Click to expand...

Other estimated numbers over the next 20 year period:
30,912,808 units with AFCI Protection
$6,182,561,538 total spent @ $200 average per unit
37,743 fires averted
$163,809 spent per averted fire​
 
Smart $ said:
Other estimated numbers over the next 20 year period:
30,912,808 units with AFCI Protection
$6,182,561,538 total spent @ $200 average per unit
37,743 fires averted
$163,809 spent per averted fire​
Click to expand...

You're right Smart. . It is $200 average per unit.

Or you could follow the example of one builder in Medina County Ohio. . He took the wire mesh out of the front porch walkway and just poured the concrete on top of the stone. . Saved him $300 per house, so that beats your $200 per house savings figure.

And the best part of that decision isn't the extra cash, it's that within the next 20 years you only have a cracked up walkway instead of a dead body [or bodies].

If you need to cut some cash out of the build, look for something other than a safety device to offer-up to the pencil pusher.
 
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