texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I think in this case of only a 20 amp circuit you are correct. My mind went to a larger circuit where the math would be different.:slaphead:
ohm's law sucks.
- Thread starter Fulthrotl
- Start date
- Status
I think in this case of only a 20 amp circuit you are correct. My mind went to a larger circuit where the math would be different.:slaphead:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
And if OP runs a 6 AWG feeder instead of a 6 AWG branch circuit protected at 20 amps table 250.122 says minimum size equipment grounding conductor is 10 AWG. A loop hole to get around using a #6 EGC is to make the majority of the run a feeder and it is code compliant to use 10 AWG instead of 6 AWG, yet your conductors are effectively supplying the same thing.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
well, unmarred by facts, my first thought was that the EGC needed to be sized to match the overcurrent
device, at 20 amps. the fact that i can use the emt as a ground and not even use a ground wire......
my electrical engineer, who gets to bless the drawing i do with his signature, when i spoke with him, whining
about having to pull #6, i asked him what size ground do i pull... and he said.... #8.....
and that is where that is at. i'm open to any opinions to the contrary....
thanks for taking the time to reply.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
now, how might i make a pair of #6 wires, serving a quad outlet 500' away, be a feeder? by setting a panel with
a single circuit breaker in it 3' from the quad?
interestingly, there is not a single branch circuit in this facility that has larger than #10. the dock light plugs,
which run 300' from the panels, are #12.
building is 6 years or so old.
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
That meets definition of a feeder pretty well. The branch circuit is the portion after that breaker.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Texie disagrees and so do I. Read 250.122(B). If it is a 20 amp circuit and you use 6AWG circuit conductors the conductors are "increased in size" and the equipment grounding conductor must be proportionally increased in size.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
(B) Increased in Size. Where ungrounded conductors are increased in size,
equipment grounding conductors, where installed, shall be increased in size
proportionately according to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors."
so, on this 110 volt single circuit, is there any reason i have to pull a ground wire?
or is the EMT a sufficient ground path? it's a 3/4" emt conduit, with, at this point,
two wires in it.
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- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If using raceway as a EGC then you have no conductor to increase. We are allowed to use metallic raceways as EGC but there is no minimum size raceway for any particular overcurrent device T250.122 applies only wire type conductors. 250.122(A) tells us this.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
simple fatigue, mostly. i decided to sleep in till 4:30 am today.
i was cranky yesterday.... :rant:
lessee... #6 is $250 or so a spool... three spools is $750.
and all the conduit and box is caddy clipped or screwed to building
steel.
yeah, i think it'll be grounded. delete ground wire..... :thumbsup:
tyha
Senior Member
- Location
- central nc
I think your focusing onthe wrong thing. Forget the conductor and grnd size. how the heck is he going to pull 750' or whatever when he used set screw couplings. unless he set boxes or taped all his couplings to get air through them for a string? Just wondering
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I imagine you can lose some air through couplings, but so much you cant blow a string through an EMT.
tyha
Senior Member
- Location
- central nc
In 1/2" - 3/4" usually no problem but above that in my experience, you will have trouble. anything over 200' - 1" or above we use compression couplings. I know from my personal experience years ago on a 2" about 300' or so feet I had to go back and wrap clear masking tape around the couplings. No air whatsoever was making it through
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
C condulets every 180'.
stainless steel fish tape.
1,200# mule tape.
C condulet right above panel so panel isn't open to workers
maxxis tugger on high speed at panel
maxxis triggers, so person watching reels can just take foot off pedal.
wire guide on 4s box on other end
simpull #6
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Love it.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
"If Billy Idol or John Denver is on your IPod go reevaluate your life"
john denver has been added too?
did someone on a job site only have a "greatest hits" playlist, or what?
only two songs on it... "white wedding, and "sunshine on my shoulders".....
over, and over, and over......
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
How can one be from Colorado and not like "Rock Mountain High"?
Never mind not many in Colarado are actually Colorado natives or at least more than one generation of natives
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
note to self. factor in the chinese conduit. did i mention i hate
stuff from china? all of it.
the stuff has the galvanizing on the inside flaking and peeling.
and when the mule tape hits it, it's like trying to drag five yards
of silk thru a foxtail patch.
tape flew in, 200'.... effortless.
mule tape came back 20', and stopped. i couldn't pull it. at all.
20', straight 3/4" emt.
couldn't pull it back. the nubbies of zinc are like velcro to the
mule tape. all this 35' in the air, in a tilt up that was well above
100 degrees up there. working alone, driving back and forth,
swearing.
there. is that whiny enough?
first one has a mule tape in it now, all 420' of it. after a while,
some of the velcroiness wore off, and it was doable.
after three hours. i'm ready to kill someone.
there is actually a purpose to this post... i'm a bit concerned about
pulling wire in this stuff, and i'm thinking of putting soap on the wire,
even tho it's simpull.
anyone ever do that? good idea or bad idea? i'm not pulling them till
thursday morning... i'm open to suggestions about what to do with this...
i was even considering dragging a 1500' spool of mule tape thru, to smooth
it out a bit, then pulling with the tail end of the mule tape...
c'mon you guys, you are smart. prove it. a magic and brilliant idea would be
appreciated right now.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
The original tag line came about because I had to listen to Billy at work one day. I came to realize that it was on an Ipod. That meant that the owner thought that Billy was worth keeping in recorded form, maybe even worth paying money for. No.
John Denver got added because I came home and found those other people that live there watching a John Denver television special. He is the other side of the coin.
My advice concerning either is the same- If you think Billy or John is worth preserving in your personal music library you either need to make an appointment with a professional counselor or seek the release that can only be found sitting in you car, in a closed garage, with the engine running.
Now, the tale of the tape. I love mule tape but it sounds like it is not the way to go in a conduit that has a bazillion tiny fingers grabbing onto it as it lays flat in there. Here's one wild idea, and one I have never tried before, chuck it up in your cordless drill and spin it before you pull.
Soap on Simpull? Done it more than once when the stuff first came out becase I did not trust what I thought was a marketing gimmick. Turns out it works as advertised, but in this case I would soap and soap.
Greenlee blue stuff is the best ever. Gel Que I think it's called. Not the cream stuff it is garbage. No yellow 77 either, Greenlee blue stuff. Nothing like it. The only thing that compares to it was some motion lotion that I grabbed off the shelf while pulling in new feeders at an adult toy store. I don't remember what the brand name of that stuff was. It worked great. Blue stuff works as good, for wire anyway.
John Denver got added because I came home and found those other people that live there watching a John Denver television special. He is the other side of the coin.
My advice concerning either is the same- If you think Billy or John is worth preserving in your personal music library you either need to make an appointment with a professional counselor or seek the release that can only be found sitting in you car, in a closed garage, with the engine running.
Now, the tale of the tape. I love mule tape but it sounds like it is not the way to go in a conduit that has a bazillion tiny fingers grabbing onto it as it lays flat in there. Here's one wild idea, and one I have never tried before, chuck it up in your cordless drill and spin it before you pull.
Soap on Simpull? Done it more than once when the stuff first came out becase I did not trust what I thought was a marketing gimmick. Turns out it works as advertised, but in this case I would soap and soap.
Greenlee blue stuff is the best ever. Gel Que I think it's called. Not the cream stuff it is garbage. No yellow 77 either, Greenlee blue stuff. Nothing like it. The only thing that compares to it was some motion lotion that I grabbed off the shelf while pulling in new feeders at an adult toy store. I don't remember what the brand name of that stuff was. It worked great. Blue stuff works as good, for wire anyway.
Alternate solutions
Alternate solutions
The required distance is fixed but there are other variables. One option might be to install a small buck-boost transformer at the source. The cost savings is substantial when compared to 1,500 ft of #6 or # 8 copper and the increased raceway and labor.
You can begin with 120V, step this up to about 140V, allow for a 10% VD and end up with 126V.
Keep in mind that the maximum VD on the branch circuit is 3%. This 3% is the difference between the voltage at the OCPD and the outlet, with the load connected.
Alternate solutions
The required distance is fixed but there are other variables. One option might be to install a small buck-boost transformer at the source. The cost savings is substantial when compared to 1,500 ft of #6 or # 8 copper and the increased raceway and labor.
You can begin with 120V, step this up to about 140V, allow for a 10% VD and end up with 126V.
Keep in mind that the maximum VD on the branch circuit is 3%. This 3% is the difference between the voltage at the OCPD and the outlet, with the load connected.
- Status