Old 2 wire

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jnewell

Member
Location
Las vegss
I keep running into 2 wire setups with handyman who put 3 prong outlets and having to explain why that isn’t safe to customers. What options do you guys provide other than rewiring with NM or adding GFCI protection to solve the EGC issue?
 
Often, in older homes, a grounding receptacle is desired for a new point load, such as a computer setup, an audio/video system, a window A/C, etc. In such cases, I almost always recommend a new circuit.

This provides the double advantage of giving the new load a new, direct, well-grounded circuit, as well as relieving the existing wiring of the burden of supplying the new load.
 
tom baker said:
Those are the only two options. GFCI is the simplest but often the old boxes are pretty small/
Click to expand...
Contractors & handyman both get this wrong for lack of skills or experience.

In most States where 406.4(D)4 was adopted over 10yrs ago, the municipal-combination inspectors are walking right thru remodels without checking for it.

Apparently nobody needs to comply with this, or inspect for it, and the property will be subject to hidden, latent, or construction-defect law.
 
LarryFine said:
I almost always recommend a new circuit.
Click to expand...

This method also triggers 210.12, but compliance is simpler with dedicated circuits, if contractors are willing to do it.

Jnewell said:
What options do you guys provide other than rewiring with NM or adding GFCI protection to solve the EGC issue?
Click to expand...

250.130(C) is another option that complies with fire code.

However, this option also triggers 406.4(D)3&4&5 without the existing 2-prong plug that was originally permitted & inspected with the building.

Another option 406.4(D)2(a) has always been available for those who refuse, or can't handle the other requirements.
 
ramsy said:
250.130(C) is another option that complies with fire code.
Click to expand...
I'll second 250.130(C) also note it has no amperage limitation, so you can use it for a range or dryer.
It however can be a stunt to fish that green wire into a old metal box.
Then you have the issue of really old boxes with no ground screw hole.
I prefer to make my own over using the grounding clips:
1641402054265.png
 
You can add GFCI protection, you can pick up a ground, or you can pull a new circuit. Or all new service if they really want to do it right.

Thise are pretty much the only options.

Having a 3 wire receptacle on an ungrounded circuit is not a violation in and of itself.
 
retirede said:
Generally speaking, a 3 prong receptacle can be installed on a 2 wire circuit as long as GFCI protection is provided and it is labeled properly.
Click to expand...
Oh, yes, I forgot about putting it on a GFI. No problem, if you do that. I did it in 1999 as an apprentice, and not since then, so that's why I forgot.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
You can add GFCI protection, you can pick up a ground, or you can pull a new circuit. Or all new service if they really want to do it right.

Thise are pretty much the only options.

Having a 3 wire receptacle on an ungrounded circuit is not a violation in and of itself.
Click to expand...
😳

Layed out right here how to do it. 406.4(d)
 
If there were a two wire system and someone at some point in time came along and installed 3 prong receptacles on said two wire system, that would be non compliant. I agree add gfci protection, an egc, or I don't see why you can't install a 2 prong receptacle since the 3 prong receptacle was wrong anyway.
 
We replaced some 2 prong with gfci’s once. Then the inspector came along with his plug tester and it doesn’t trip. Threw us for a loop for a bit but found out the hand tester has to have a ground to test.
 
LT Sparky said:
We replaced some 2 prong with gfci’s once. Then the inspector came along with his plug tester and it doesn’t trip. Threw us for a loop for a bit but found out the hand tester has to have a ground to test.
Click to expand...
Been told that those plug in GFCI testers are not valid for inspection purpose for that very reason. Only acceptable test is the test button on the receptacle or breaker.
 
Had to tell an Inspectigator that.

The plug in testers leak a small amount of current to the ground. If there’s no ground, then it doesn’t leak.

So unless he wants to ground himself and grab the hot, he better go to the GFCI, push the button, and make sure all downstream receptacles are dead. 👍
 
If its an occupied dwelling a scrupulous inspector could really dig into 250.114(3), for example information technology equipment.

(3) In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing
machines; ranges; kitchen waste disposers; information
technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical
aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and fixed
motor-operated tools, and light industrial motor-
operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types:
hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and wet
scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top