Old cloth wiring with bare neutral.

[blkmagik21]

I was working on a remodel today on some old government prefabs from the late 40’s.

I’ve worked on many of the other ones but most of them were built in the 50’s.

What is weird to me is that the wiring is that old braided cloth NM wire. But the only wire that was insulated was the hot and not the neutral. The neutral wire looked just like the ground wire in today’s NMB romex.

Have any of you came across this before?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . old government prefabs from the late 40’s. . . . only wire that was insulated was the hot and not the neutral. The neutral wire looked just like the ground wire in today’s NMB romex.

Have any of you came across this before?

I've seen a lot of old stuff, but this is new.

There are hints in your two photos of how it comes to be. I suspect that a pencil pusher spent a little too much time finding the lowest cost material in the catalogs, and didn't understand the effect of assembly placement (like putting the service in such a ridiculous location) on the labor cost. -Even the panel dead front, with the missing plug fuse openings hints at this.

Thanks for taking the time to send the snapshots.

 

[K8MHZ]

I wonder if the insulation was there originally and has rotted and fallen off. I would be curious to see what the stuff looks like a foot or so up the cable.

 

[curt swartz]

I was working on a remodel about 20 years ago and all the existing NM cable had 1 black and 1 bare conductor. First time I had seen it and have never seen it since.

 

[user 100]

I was working on a remodel today on some old government prefabs from the late 40’s.......

What is weird to me is that the wiring is that old braided cloth NM wire. But the only wire that was insulated was the hot and not the neutral. The neutral wire looked just like the ground wire in today’s NMB romex.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen a lot of old stuff, but this is new.

I wonder if the insulation was there originally and has rotted and fallen off. I would be curious to see what the stuff looks like a foot or so up the cable.

Guys, I could be making this up, but I swear that eons ago (very early 2000's) on one of the other forums (iirc it was ecn or maybe not:?:dunce, there was a discussion about this same cable and there was not only a name given to it, but a bonafide goofball use for it at one time was described---the bare conductor was never intended to be a noodle and the fact that this cable was sometimes used in place of true nm was also a discussion point.

So, OP, somewhere off in the depths of cyberspace lies the answer......

 

[JFletcher]

I was working on a remodel today on some old government prefabs from the late 40’s.

I’ve worked on many of the other ones but most of them were built in the 50’s.

What is weird to me is that the wiring is that old braided cloth NM wire. But the only wire that was insulated was the hot and not the neutral. The neutral wire looked just like the ground wire in today’s NMB romex.

Have any of you came across this before?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

.

Recently I wired house that had the old t w insulation that was crumbling on the wires. I wasn't sure how the neutral and hod'nt

shorted out and then I realized the neutral had a very thin coating of some kind of plastic or something on it that had to be stripped back for the wire to be completely bare. I bought some heat shrink tubing a kit from HD was about $18 that is good for reinsulating wire that is bear has crumbling insulation

 

[Buck Parrish]

I too, have seen it. I was perplexed then and I'm still perplexed.
I think it was #10

 

[mbrooke]

This comes up every few years on every electrician forum. With pictures and all. Such a beast did exist and was used both legally and illegally. Remember that up until recently you could even get 2 wire SE cable (1 hot one bare noddle) Here is one post that may shed light on this particular installation:


http://www.electriciantalk.com/f24/odd-1940s-nm-15963/#post274134

 

[mbrooke]

For the records:

1943 Supplement to the 1940 NEC:
*Section 3372. With Uninsulated Conductor. (New section). Interim Amendment No. 43 Approved April 9, 1942.

Add a new section 3372 to be effective only for the duration of the emergency.
3372. With Uninsulated Conductor [for neutral only]. . . .may be used in defense emergency buildings of occupancies other than listed in 1 to 7 in section 3362. Such cable shall not be used on circuits exceeding 208 volts to ground, nor for circuits beyond the final cable branch-circuit outlet [surface or fixture] nor for extensions to existing branch circuits on which all conductors have individual insulation. [Bond distribution--downstream!--cabinets to it.] [Boxes and covers should be nonmetallic.]

Then Section 3382 okayed SE for ranges, water heaters and feeders to other buildings.

 

[Jraef]

I remember coming across it in the 70s when I was working on a project where old Army barracks and officer's housing was being converted to condos, so that fits the scenario. Old quonset huts too, being converted to light industrial buildings. We were told to rip and replace it all because it no longer met code. In some of the barracks buildings there were so many other code violations that this one put them over the edge toward bulldozing them. Not sure when those were built but it was likely during WWII. Turned out it was the camp where my Father had been discharged, something I didn't know until I was going through his papers after he passed away decades later.

Ever since then I keep seeing articles in the paper calling for converting old mothballed military facilities into low income housing and I always think "Yeah, if you had ever tried, you'd know it's easier said than done." Under the pressure of war, they did a LOT of things that were not intended to survive very long, but once something is built, people think it's worth saving...

 

[drcampbell]

During the war, there were a lot of design decisions made to expedite production, and minimize the use of labor and strategic materials. My "favorite" was 480-volt 3-phase motors controlled by 2-pole switches.

 

[kwired]

Guys, I could be making this up, but I swear that eons ago (very early 2000's) on one of the other forums (iirc it was ecn or maybe not:?:dunce, there was a discussion about this same cable and there was not only a name given to it, but a bonafide goofball use for it at one time was described---the bare conductor was never intended to be a noodle and the fact that this cable was sometimes used in place of true nm was also a discussion point.

So, OP, somewhere off in the depths of cyberspace lies the answer......

If only a two wire cable and bare isn't intended for current carrying - makes the cable useless, there needs to be a return path.

 

[retirede]

If only a two wire cable and bare isn't intended for current carrying - makes the cable useless, there needs to be a return path.

Perfect for K&T with EGC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

If only a two wire cable and bare isn't intended for current carrying - makes the cable useless, there needs to be a return path.

You did see this? Right?

For the records:

1943 Supplement to the 1940 NEC:
*Section 3372. With Uninsulated Conductor. (New section). Interim Amendment No. 43 Approved April 9, 1942.

Add a new section 3372 to be effective only for the duration of the emergency.
3372. With Uninsulated Conductor [for neutral only]. . . .may be used in defense emergency buildings of occupancies other than listed in 1 to 7 in section 3362. Such cable shall not be used on circuits exceeding 208 volts to ground, nor for circuits beyond the final cable branch-circuit outlet [surface or fixture] nor for extensions to existing branch circuits on which all conductors have individual insulation. [Bond distribution--downstream!--cabinets to it.] [Boxes and covers should be nonmetallic.]

Then Section 3382 okayed SE for ranges, water heaters and feeders to other buildings.

 

[kwired]

You did see this? Right?

Yes.

My reply was primarily to "the bare conductor was never intended to be a noodle". If you can't use it for current carrying conductor what is the point of even having a two wire cable with one conductor being bare?

Three wire cable you can at least have supply and return conductors (whether either is grounded or not) plus a bare equipment grounding conductor.

 

[user 100]

Guys, I could be making this up, but I swear that eons ago (very early 2000's) on one of the other forums (iirc it was ecn or maybe not:?:dunce, there was a discussion about this same cable and there was not only a name given to it, but a bonafide goofball use for it at one time was described---the bare conductor was never intended to be a noodle and the fact that this cable was sometimes used in place of true nm was also a discussion point.

So, OP, somewhere off in the depths of cyberspace lies the answer......

If only a two wire cable and bare isn't intended for current carrying - makes the cable useless, there needs to be a return path.

Like I said, it was a long time ago.

I'm not even sure if they meant the bare wasn't supposed to be used as a neutral in the application (can't recall exactly what that was) they mentioned or some other use but I do remember one guy saying it was definitely legal to do so at one time while others disagreed. I remember these guys getting off into a pretty long tangent (like they do here) about who was right or wrong. :happyyes:

Sure wish I could find it.

Anyway, the info mbrooke posted:thumbsup:----- is good enough for me and squares it away.

 

[growler]

Ever since then I keep seeing articles in the paper calling for converting old mothballed military facilities into low income housing and I always think "Yeah, if you had ever tried, you'd know it's easier said than done."

Most of the peope reading those articles in the paper will have no idea of what is really involved in remodeling old buildings so it will sound like a good idea.

Years ago I met a guy that purchased a historical landmark type of house. The contractor/developer practically gave him the property. That should have been his first clue as to what would be required to restore it.

 

[gadfly56]

I hope y'all are keeping in mind that the OP's situation is hot and neutral wire are the same size, BOTH are insulated, but the hot insulation is thicker.

 

[GoldDigger]

I hope y'all are keeping in mind that the OP's situation is hot and neutral wire are the same size, BOTH are insulated, but the hot insulation is thicker.

I think that you are confusing this with another thread. In this one the OP clearly states that the neutral is totally bare inside the overall sheath.

 

[gadfly56]

I think that you are confusing this with another thread. In this one the OP clearly states that the neutral is totally bare inside the overall sheath.

Yep, you're right, my bad! That's what happens when you have two tabs open for the same web site at the same time. :ashamed1: