Old Fuse Panels VS New Breaker Panel

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Ravenvalor

Ravenvalor

Senior Member
Location
Triad region of NC
Occupation
Electrician
Hello,
I have a church customer with an 80 - year old sanctuary with the old BX cable and fuse panels. They are trying to determine whether or not to replace the 2 - fuse panels with breaker panels. Another electrician recommended that they not disturb the old BX cable by replacing the panels. I recommended that they convert the old fuse panels into J-boxes and put new breaker panels nearby. They did not like my idea so I was wondering if you folks had any input on the pros and cons of 'replacing' pulling out the old fuse panels and risk damaging the old BX cable VS just leaving the old fuses panels? It seems to me like replacing the old fuse panels for new breaker panels is the obvious choice. I think that I can do it safely without damaging the old BX cable. It seems like breakers may afford more protection of the cables. I could even try AFCI/GFCI combos on some of the circuits.
Thanks for the help.
 
Not knowing how brittle the old BX is, your idea of turning the old panels into junction boxes is the best and safest idea. I'd be surprised if the old BX could survive a lot of manipulation without breaking the wire insulation.
 
I wouldn't put AFCI on anything. For one, it's not required since it's not a dwelling, and also might cause a lot of nuisance tripping should there be shared neutrals. My experience with Church buildings is, over the years, a lot of volunteer work has been done with the majority of it being done incorrectly. So you don't know how the circuits are tied together if they have been added to. Adding AFCI is just asking for trouble.

If they don't want to add breaker panels and making the fuse panel boxes a junction box, and you don't feel comfortable just changing out the panels, I would just walk away. Fuse panels will protect the circuits as well as a breaker panel will. Only thing that makes it any better is not having to replace fuses, just reset a breaker.
 
Little Bill said:
. My experience with Church buildings is, over the years, a lot of volunteer work has been done with the majority of it being done incorrectly. So you don't know how the circuits are tied together if they have been added to. Adding AFCI is just asking for trouble.
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Amen ! (Pun intended).... worse commercial messes I've encountered have been churches and Chinese restaurants.
 
I think most “common folk” are not afraid of screwing in a fuse (or putting a penny behind it), but would shy away from having to unwired a breaker. Just about every screw-in fuse panel I have seen has 30A fuses on 15A or 20A circuits.
 
Little Bill said:
I wouldn't put AFCI on anything. For one, it's not required since it's not a dwelling, and also might cause a lot of nuisance tripping should there be shared neutrals. My experience with Church buildings is, over the years, a lot of volunteer work has been done with the majority of it being done incorrectly. So you don't know how the circuits are tied together if they have been added to. Adding AFCI is just asking for trouble.
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I agree with you 100% from a contractor's point of view. I think that if it was my church I would want to pay the extra cost to put the circuits on GFCI breakers if possible and try to at least try to put the lighting circuits on AFCI/GFCI combos.
Thanks for all the great responses.
 
Jraef said:
I think most “common folk” are not afraid of screwing in a fuse (or putting a penny behind it), but would shy away from having to unwired a breaker. Just about every screw-in fuse panel I have seen has 30A fuses on 15A or 20A circuits.
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A long time ago when I worked at a local hardware store, we sold a lot of 30 amp single pole breakers to home owners, but even more 30 amp fuses.
 
Like comedian Ron White says;

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Little Bill said:
I wouldn't put AFCI on anything. For one, it's not required since it's not a dwelling, and also might cause a lot of nuisance tripping should there be shared neutrals. My experience with Church buildings is, over the years, a lot of volunteer work has been done with the majority of it being done incorrectly. So you don't know how the circuits are tied together if they have been added to. Adding AFCI is just asking for trouble.

If they don't want to add breaker panels and making the fuse panel boxes a junction box, and you don't feel comfortable just changing out the panels, I would just walk away. Fuse panels will protect the circuits as well as a breaker panel will. Only thing that makes it any better is not having to replace fuses, just reset a breaker.
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Agree but you’re missing option 3.

Convert the fuse panels into sub panels by separating the neutrals and grounds if possible. This is another reason an 80 year old panel and GFCZi (never mind AFCI) aren’t going to get along. Then you can install the new panel as a main with the fuse panels as sun panels, disturbing almost nothing except the feeder(s) and grounds/neutrals.
 
If they are not having an issue with the fuses and there is no history of over fusing I say their money is better spent on energy efficient lighting/HVAC upgrades.
You can always install type-s adapters.
That being said I have replaced countless panels in old buildings with bx cable and not had a problem.
 
I have converted fuse panels to circuit breakers by gutting fuse panels and installing a load center in the fuse panel can. A sheet metal shop makes a trim for the new panel. Splice and reconnect to new CBS.
 
How about insurance company, might want to see what they have to say.

Old BX? not known to be a great EGC path and reason newer cable has a bond strip under the sheath. Sure it possibly is still "grandfathered" from code enforcement perspective if left alone, but doesn't make it any better EGC.
 
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