Old panel used as juction box

[reel-break]

Remodel job. There is a 100 a breaker panel in the kitchen. The working space is in question as it has a water heater in front of panel but its a floor type not very high. I oviously want to leave it as is and make it a subpanel running 4 wire ser to it and leave it in place.Called the inspector and he wants the existing panel made into a juction box for working clearance but doesn`t the JB need the same working clearance?I realize the panel will be gone to more so than Jbox.I`m hoping to get some artical numbers to help leave it and make it a sub panel..Thanks.I guess my main question is can that panel stay as is being a sub panel? Please help me with some ref 3`s thanks

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

don't think you can justify this on any article since it is a safety issue. he may let you slide on this since it isn't going to be something that is normally serviced by unqualified personnel? maybe you'll catch him in a good mood?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

If a sub panel then you are out of luck nothing can encroch in a panels space but if a J box 110.26 applies to energized equiptment and a breaker lock out negates the required working space rule.Locked out not energized IMHO

 

[mpd]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

junction boxes do not have to comply with 110.26,
look at 314.29, if you are only re-feeding an
existing panel I do not see why you would have to
relocate the panel. why would he want all those splices.

 

[DK34]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

240.24(B) States "Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy". That would include services and branch circuits alike. Ready access would be defined as "Readily accessible" in Art.100 "without requiring...to climb over..." My best advise is to move the waterheater.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

you go DK 34

 

[pierre]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.
Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about ALL electric equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.

I am not sure why so many people think that this only pertains to panels.
All equipment needs to have sufficient clearance.
If that panel becomes a junction box, it still needs clearance and depending where the water heater actually is (a job site visit is usually necessary to make the proper determination), will decide if it needs to be relocated or not.

Article 110 has precedent over every article, unless it is modified by another article. 314.29 is not modifying 110.26, but supplementing it. Therefore 110.26 has to be complied with.

 

[roger]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

So now we're back to whether a receptacle can be located behind a refrigerator with out wheels, or if we can install a receptacle under a sink for a disposal.


Roger

 

[pierre]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Roger
You guys from below the Mason-Dixon Line sure do love to drive us Yanks crazy

My comment was not driven towards disconnect requirements, but working space as per the first paragraph of 110.26.
I would say the receptacle behind the refrigerator is fine, as the fridge can be moved if necessary.
The receptacle under the sink for the disposal is usually fine, but there are job specific times where I have seen the receptacle under the sink installed (during roughing) and then so much "stuff" is added (plumbing related), that one cannot even see the particular receptacle. Then I have an issue with that.

 

[roger]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Pierre,

Roger
You guys from below the Mason-Dixon Line sure do love to drive us Yanks crazy

we sure do.

Now, what about a plain old jbox in an attic where you would have to crawl face down in blown in insulation (I start scratching thinking about it) to get to it, yet by the word of the code it had the clearance requirement?

Roger

 

[mpd]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

I have to disagree, junction boxes do not have to
comply with 110.26, if they did so much for installing them in attics, crawl spaces, ceilings that would need a ladder to access, think about it if I put a 4" square box with 277
volt circuit to ground with condition 2, I would need 42" deep by 30" wide working clearance, 110.26 applies to equipment, 314 applies to junction boxes.

 

[reel-break]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

This box is an existing panel in a old residence.They are adding rooms and I was planning on leaving it making it a sub but the code official says he wants it made into a JB but hasn`t provided any code reference.So based on the postI know if I add a new panel it must meet working clearance but since its already there is there code rules that would let me leave it feed 4 wire se to it and add my 200 amp panel else where and be on my merry way? I really hate to make all those splices.The panel is a breaker panel someone had to have changed in the last 5 years. So can I leave it yes or no?
Thanks

 

[mpd]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

if you are only installing a feeder to an existing panel, in my opinion the panel can stay
where it is. as I said in a previous post why would he want all those splices, is the existing
panel accessible? the only yes or no answer is
with the inspector, ask him why installing a feeder to existing panel requires you to relocate the panel, and ask him for a code section.

 

[johndeereman]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

I know that we all @ one time or another have used an old panel as a JB but under ART-110.3(A)(B) is this piece of equipment being used as listed & labeled? If it becomes a JB the clearances is not a problem under Art-110.26 because it is no longer a piece of equipment requiring service to electrical apparatus.

 

[pierre]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

MPD
I did not mention 11.26(A) in my post, but I did mention 110.26. It specifically says "Sufficient access and working space...". "...about all electric equipment...".

Article 100. Equipment. A general term including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires (fixtures), apparatus, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

This is one of the few sections in the NEC that has provisions to protect and help the electrician. I would think that we would want to take full advantage of it.


Roger
The only thing I could think of that would be worse than crawling in a hot attic face down in insulation during a hot summer day would be another civil war.

How many times have I had my elbows,back or my neck sore from trying to access a jbox in a hot, insulation filled, cramped spaced attic? I try not to remember those days.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Originally posted by pierre: The only thing I could think of that would be worse . . . would be another civil war.

The proper title of that conflict is ?The War of Northern Aggression.?

Charlie B. (Though I live in Washington State, the ?Eyes of Texas? are still upon me.)

 

[mpd]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Pierre
what I disagree with is your previous post you said junction boxes need clearance and 110.26
has precedent of 314.29, I agree the box must be
accessible, but it does not have to comply with the working clearances of 110.26, in my opinion
110.26 has nothing to do with a juntion box that
contains splices only.

 

[physis]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

By Pierre:

I did mention 110.26. It specifically says "Sufficient access and working space...". "...about all electric equipment...".

This is the domain of Table 3.2.1 Possibly Uninforceable and Vague Terms of the 2003 NEC Style Manual.

 

[iwire]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Originally posted by Pierre:
MPD
I did not mention 110.26(A) in my post, but I did mention 110.26. It specifically says "Sufficient access and working space...". "...about all electric equipment...".

MDP I agree with Pierre that the first paragraph in 110.26 applies to all electric equipment and a junction box is without a doubt electric equipment.

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.
Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electric equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment. Enclosures housing electrical apparatus that are controlled by lock and key shall be considered accessible to qualified persons.

I do not see how that first paragraph can be read any other way.

110.26(A) on the other hand does not apply to all electric equipment, only electric equipment that is likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.

Pierre sufficient means only that, it does not mean easy, convenient, enjoyable

JMO, Bob

 

[johndeereman]

Re: Old panel used as juction box

Art-100 The definition "Equipment" dose not include J-boxes.