Old Wiring, what to do?

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CWalker

Member
I just purchased my firt home. This home was built in the early 40's. The bathroom has a GFI and the outlets in the Kitchen are grounded. However, no other outlets in the house are grounded.

I just found out last night that the outlets in my living room are connected to the lights in the basement.

I have a few computers and a large selection of devices for my entertainment center and would rather not plug anything into a non grounded outlet.
What is the best course of action shy of spending a ton of money to rewire my whole house? Or is that the best/only idea.

I also have a ceiling fan in the living room with a light and no switch on the wall for it. Any thoughts on that also?

Thanks in advance.
CW
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

I would advise paying for a service call to have an electrician inspect the wiring. Unless I'm being paid I don't crawl in the attic or crawl space I just suggest a rewire. I like the ton of money idea.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Hire a qualified electrician to see what is entailed in adding a few dedicated circuits for the computer and entertainment system.For the ceiling fan check into a remote control.Homes wired in the 40`s were not set up for todays needs.Are the receptacles in the kitchen and bath actually grounded or did someone merely install 3 wire grounded receptacles on a 2 wire circuit.Again have a qualified electrician check these matters out for you.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

* The outlets in the kitchen should be converted to GFCIs, especially if they aren't actually grounded. Have an electrician test them and upgrade the receptacles.

* Outlets in the living room connected to lights in the basement is not a code violation. The circuit might be overloaded, which is a design issue. An electrician can do a load calculation and let you know if these circuits should be separated.

* Just about everything electronic in my own house (computer, TV, DVD player, VCR) is connected to an ungrounded receptacle and has been for years. Everything still works just fine. The easy solution for your peace of mind would be to have an electrician make sure the service is properly grounded to both the water pipes and a ground rod, then run grounded circuits for the outlets you need. Depending on the layout of the house, this might not be too difficult/expensive. If the house was built in the late 40s, it's probably a rambler (i.e., only one story), which makes things easier. You don't need to rewire the whole house if you just want grounding for a few receptacles.

* The ceiling fan can probably take a battery-operated remote control, which wouldn't require any new wiring to be run. Have an electrician install the remote receiving unit in the fan. This is a fairly easy job, assuming the fan can accept a battery-operated remote. Some of them can't, but most can.

Just because wiring is old doesn't mean it's bad. I doubt you need to spend a ton of money to get what you need. If your house is in Minneapolis (or nearby), feel free to contact me. I do this kind of work all the time.

[ October 27, 2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

You don't need to spend a ton of money. In fact, you don't need to spend any money. In my side of the industry, the engineering design side, we always recognize that "keeping what you have and doing nothing to change it" is an option that is worth at least some consideration. You need to ask yourself if you can accept the consequences of that option, and how much it is worth to you to prevent those consequences.

The first service call should tell you all you want to know about what things should get changed, what things might be good to change even if they are not required, and what things you can leave alone. I just did the same for my car. Spent $150 or so to find out everything that was wrong, authorized work on the more important things, and saved all the other things for another day.

Good luck.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

I just purchased my firt home. This home was built in the early 40's. The bathroom has a GFI and the outlets in the Kitchen are grounded. However, no other outlets in the house are grounded.
Click to expand...
How do you know they are grounded? Could be they are outlets with 3 holes but nothing connected to the ground connection. Worse yet, the ground and neutral could be shorted together.

I just found out last night that the outlets in my living room are connected to the lights in the basement.
Click to expand...
So?

I have a few computers and a large selection of devices for my entertainment center and would rather not plug anything into a non grounded outlet.
Click to expand...
Why? An ungrounded outlet provides the same power as a grounded one does. and having a ground wire does little or nothing to protect your equipment. Much of this type of equipment does not use the ground anyway. check and see if the plug is 2 or 3 prong. if it is 2 prong, it does not use the ground wire anyway. And surge suppression equipment really does not need the ground wire to work. The "surge" is not shunted to ground as many people think, but rather shunted from hot to neutral.

What is the best course of action shy of spending a ton of money to rewire my whole house? Or is that the best/only idea.
Click to expand...
It depends on what you really want. It might make some sense to have a real electrician come in and take a look around and see what he thinks. A set of professional eyes can often discern what is really necessary versus what is unnecessary or merely desirable.


I also have a ceiling fan in the living room with a light and no switch on the wall for it. Any thoughts on that also?
Click to expand...
Do you want/need a wall switch? There is nothing inherently dangerous about leaving it the way it is.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

CWalker, remember I said to hire an electrician and not an engineer. Article 250 of the NEC is not there just to make the book thicker. Many surge protection devices do use the ground wire. The MOV's are shunted to ground. I have a power supply out of a computer in front of me at this minute. Also the metal case of the computer can become energized. You can not be forced to ground the electrical system but it's not a bad idea. Metal plumbing pipes may not be properly grounded and can become energized. There is a great deal of difference between having a system that works and one that is safe. The worst thing I see in the field is when a home is remodeled by those that don't know or care what they are doing. If the original wiring is good then run a circuit for the computer and put GFCI protection for kitchen, garage, exterior recpts. and bath and maybe Arc Faults for the bedrooms.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Originally posted by growler: CWalker, remember I said to hire an electrician and not an engineer.
Click to expand...
On behalf of Bob and myself, I resemble that remark. :D :D
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Sorry Charlie, I didn't mean you. I just didn't want Bob to give people the idea that grounding is not important or that all surge suppression does not use the ground. In some cases that third prong is still used.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Originally posted by growler:
Sorry Charlie, I didn't mean you. I just didn't want Bob to give people the idea that grounding is not important or that all surge suppression does not use the ground. In some cases that third prong is still used.
Click to expand...
What makes you think the third prong does anything in a surge suppressor?

Note that I said grounding does little or nothing to protect equipment - it is helpful in protecting people sometimes. And equipment that does not have a third prong does not need a grounded receptacle since it does not use the ground.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Bob, check out the different designs for surge suppression. Some are shunted to the green wire ( ground, third prong ). They do make suppessors shunted to neutral. Check out a surge protection device, if they use MOV's it's shunted to ground. New PC's come with a simple surge protector built in.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Every computer i have worked on has had a ground prong.It is best not to pypass it.If the equipment you have is of value then i suggest a UPS system for them.They cost about $125 at Sam's.They will also want a ground.Hire an electrician to provide you grounded outlets at the locations needed.Great idea while he is there to have the kitchen recepts replaced with gfci even if no ground is available.As to rewiring the house ,that depends on what the electrician finds hidden behind the wall and in the attic.Lets us know what he finds and suggests.Invite him to our forum.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Growler What are you protecting with a hot to ground MOV? There is no load there to protect, and ferther more surges are a high frequancy events which will most likly not travel all the way back to the panel to the MJB then back to the equipment on the neutral. Note that panel mount TVSS systems instalation instructions will tell you to keep your leads 6" or less. Providing TVSS protection for a conductor that should never have a load on it is a hype to sell you more MOVs and push the combined surge rating up for very little cost. I know of many computers that have no grounding and work just fine. as for protection do as Jim said get a duel conversion UPS which then the computer will be isolated from the utility and protected better than any grounding conductor could ever provide.
Now I'm not avocating not to use grounding, but lets face it if Earth didn't have to be connected to the electrical grid there would not be a return path to be shocked from.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Hurk27, I have been reading similar articles, but it did state up front that most manufacturers do shunt to ground. Also even if you don't shunt to ground it is recommended that the system be properly grounded to prevent noise ( different article). There is also the safety consideration. The case of the computer and the UPS system may be made of metal. Plus all of the pieces of equipment have three prong male plugs. If you use an adapter to plug in the equipment how is the case grounded. If it becomes energized there would be no ground path. I just don't see any down side to running a dedicated grounded circuit.
And on the up side, we get paid to do that sort of thing. I have found many recommended surge suppressors and they all have UL approval. If it has the sticker it clears me ( customer choice). I'm sure that if we read enough articles we can find one that agrees with almost any point of view. I found one article that said you should put a surge suppressor on the load side of the UPS because the inverter ( an electronic switching device ) could cause surges. I will continue to recommend that circuits for computers be grounded and if the homeowner chooses not to then that is their choice. That way I'm covered if anything goes wrong.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Living in Florida (capital of lightning)has taught me a lot about lightning and power surges.Before i got smart we lost many modems and other boards on our computers.A simple ups that plugs in has stopped all of our problems.Even a simple dive in power can mess up a computer.Seeing lights blink here is normal.Lightning miles away or cars hitting poles is common.People spend thousands on quality electronics and then get cheap about protecting them.We have 4 of these ups box's in our home.If they do nothing else they at least keep your computer up long enough to save your work.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

WOW, didnt think I would get so many responses. Thanks alot for all your thoughts and info.

For those curious how I know the kitchen outlets are grounded...I spent 4 bucks for a tester, now I suppose this could be wrong but so far it seems to be correct.

I suppose I could have someone just run new wire to the outlets I am going to use, yes? Should I have them put in 20amp breakers and wire for all the equipment and PC's I may plug into it or is that not a good idea?

As for the fan, your your right not having a switch is not that big a deal just a nice convienence.

Again thanks for all the info.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

It is probably a good idea to make sure you have an adequate number of receptacles to supply the equipment you want to power. And 20A circuits are probably a better choice than 15A circuit, although I am not sure it matters much if the outlets themselves are 15 or 20 amp. The 15A outlets are normally less expensive and few if any household appliances require 20 amp outlets. Note that it is permissable to install 15A outlets on 20A circuits.

You may wish to consider having extra outlets installed where you are putting your computers just to avoid a rats nest of cords being plugged into power strips. They do not necessarily need to be different circuits though.
 
Re: Old Wiring, what to do?

Growler - I do not have any quarrel with someone grounding something. If it has a metal case, it should be grounded.

However, the idea that plug in surge suppressors work better somehow in suppressing surges when the ground is connected is just not supportable. It is true that many of them have metal cases that need to be grounded for safety purposes. This is because of the potential for the MOVs to catch on fire, and metal is less likely to catch on fire. It is why some surge suppressors have metal bodies.

I am also not all that sure that grounding a computer case does a lot to reduce noise either. There are a very few cases where it might, but generally I am not convinced. Keep in mind that most electical "noise" is a pretty high frequency. There is no reason for this electrical signal to want to go to ground. Noise finds a conductive path just like regular old power does. It is just that at the higher frequencies, a lot of paths are very high impedance to noise signals.

There is sometimes a benefit for other equipment in the area though. Computers do generate some high frequency signals that can be attenuated by grounding the case.

[ October 28, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top