Old Work Box Problem

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I was out playing electrician again tonight and ran into a problem. HO wanted a ceiling fan installed in her old house. Existing "box" was a surface-mounted 0 cubic inch plate with four old-style MC cables connected to it. I extracted the plate/box and opened up the hole enough to fit a fan box. Unfortunately, just above the location of the hole is cross-bracing of the floor above, and it's right in the way of the fan spreader bar I was planning on installing.

So now I have a nice round hole in the plaster/lath and four old MC cables protruding. I don't think there's a good way to get a fan box in, so the HO and I talked about putting in a box that would hold a small light fixture. I need something with four 1/2" KOs that also has some way to be secured to the ceiling. The old-work boxes I'm used to using are plastic and designed for NM. Is there a metal box suitable for this situation? The hole I enlarged is just the right size for a standard octagonal box.
 
I am 100% certain that I'd get a sawsall blade in there, nip that angle brace in two, reach in and rip out the pieces, and install that fan box. That's just me talking, though. Not like I havn't done it before.
 
I thought about that, but I suspect I'd either rip up the ceiling or cause a structural problem with the floor above. I've never ripped out an angle brace before. I assume it was put in for a good reason.
 
jeff43222 said:
Unfortunately, just above the location of the hole is cross-bracing of the floor above, and it's right in the way of the fan spreader bar I was planning on installing.
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I'm with Marc, there's probably no harm in cutting part of that angle brace out. Your new spreader bar's going to help do the job that angle brace was doing anyway.

Good luck,
 
Talk to a carpenter , they understand the reasons and importances of these braces.
Perhaps some of these braces are functional only during the rough frame of building and have little or no importance after the building structure is complete.
Either way a carpenter framer should/would know the importance of these braces and help you.
 
jeff43222 said:
I thought about that, but I suspect I'd either rip up the ceiling or cause a structural problem with the floor above. I've never ripped out an angle brace before. I assume it was put in for a good reason.
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They reduce floor bounce (slightly) by making adjacent joists share the load, similar to solid blocking. The don't keep the joists from flopping, so don't worry. They work in compression, not tension, by the way.

Cut them, like MD said, push the upper halves up and out of the way, and the lower halves sideways until the nails pull out. It's not hard. Just be ready for the recip saw blade to break through, reducing pressure as you near the edge.

It's amazing how much you can do through a 4" hole with a bit of practice. I once fed a cable from a crawl space to the center of the ceiling in the room above, with no access holes. Really.

It took an extra couple of hours, but the customer was happy we didn't have to cut the faux suede wall finish. I always charge by the hour for tough fishing.
 
I havn't used a spreader bar in many years to mount a fan on. I just don't think they're secure enough. For modern style construction, I like to use a saddle type fan box. For old construction, where the joists are wider than 1-1/2", I like to use the Westinghouse style one sided saddle box, like the one here: http://www.hectorshardware.biz/shop/product.asp?dept_id=905&sku=527564

Granted, sometimes the joist just isn't centered in the room enough, and you have to use a spreader bar type box.
 
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A ceiling medallion might help....make the hole an inch +/- shy of the diameter of medallion..move the corss-bracing over 2" or the CF box over 2"
 
After you've removed the cross bracing as previously suggested,try this,

http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/raco/RACO_datasheet.asp?PN=936&FAM=RacoBoxes

The arm assembly fits through a 4" opening, center it and twist. The arm expands and the barbs on the ends bite into the joists to give you a strong box support, then attach the box to the arm with the supplied hardware and your done. We use these all the time and they're a real time saver, not to mention, the customers love the reduced labor and repair costs they could be facing from other alternatives.
 
Cut-in the brace is no problem IMO - if only one.... They are pretty redundant. But from what I understand - when it comes to carpentry is not much - from what I was told, as I bash them out often but ask first - is that they are to help the joist from rolling bowing or warping. And that as many of the siesmic codes developed they later turned to solid blocking.

Anyway, I would take it out and shoot for a remodel fan box and brace kit. If not make a carpenter rocker and pantier happy with opening it up, framing it for the box you want (well supported where ever you like) and patch and paint.:rolleyes:
 
I have always been under the impression that X braces were to stop rolling or twisting of joists.Much like the newer metal ones do.I have removed quite a few over the years and have never had an issue come back to me on it.

Why is it that they are always where you need to do something ????? :)
Murphys Law I guess................
 
stickboy1375 said:
Use Twin connectors so you only need two 1/2" ko's by the way...:)
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I picked up on your use of the term "twin connector" right away. It is interesting to see the different regional terms used. 'Round these parts, pretty much everyone calles them "duplex connectors". The apprentices call them "one of those connectors that you can put two MC cables in one connector". :roll:
 
I'd be a little hesitant to use them in this case. The wires inside the MC are cloth-covered, and the insulation isn't in the best shape. I have a feeling things wouldn't fit too well, and I don't want to risk further damaging the insulation.

I think I'm going to go with the consensus and cut out one of the cross braces (the other one isn't in the way) and put in the fan spreader box.
 
You still need a connector, so have fun getting four of them in...:)



I too have noticed and picked up on different names for items... pretty neat stuff depending on where you live....
 
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