Old Work Boxes

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pricey permit indeed. I choked on my coffee when I read that. :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
 
Last edited:
It scares me to know that both the field inspector and the Chief are teaching code classes.



I want to go back to 90.1(A)- Purpose
and
90.1(C)- Intention
 
Just a thought here.... Why not install the box as per inspector then charge change order for the moving of the box if need be?
 
That would be fine if the required change order wouldn't require cutting drywall, patchwork and repaint to use a structure mounted box.
What about adding an outlet later. Same would apply.
 
This guy is nuts,
I do the same thing for bathrooms. There is no way the GC is going to have a patched wall that he has to have repainted when a light box needs to be moved because either the center of sink or height of mirror dictates where the light will be. If he's concerned with support of the cable just try to have the wire stapled appropriately as practical. Been doing it this way for over 20 years after quickly finding out what a PITA it was having something change in measurements between rough-in and finish. Just nuts!!! After all the remodel boxes are usually adequate for the weighting of the fixtures.
 
That house should have been wired with rigid galvanized conduit in the first place and that would have ensured that the box was mounted rigidly enough to support the $16 dollar light fixtures that Lowe's was featuring that week in the newspaper ads. At minimum all dwellings need to be wired at least in emt, cause you just never know. You just never know.
 
Inspectorsixx said:
That would be fine if the required change order wouldn't require cutting drywall, patchwork and repaint to use a structure mounted box.
What about adding an outlet later. Same would apply.
Click to expand...

I agree that you should install per plan and collect on the change order. So what the drywall and paint work needs to be done? Sub it out and charge them for it.

Why should anyone bother taking the time to make good prints when the electrician is willing to skip over a few rules and gets the inspector to sign off?

I'll bet the plans get better after they get charged a few times for their errors and/or mid work changes.

Some EC's make all their money on change orders. And good for them, too.
 
mjf said:
I leave a coil in the wall. Seems like there's always a stud centered in the vanity anyway. cut a circle of drywall, attach pancake box to framing member.......done.
Click to expand...


What I find 9 times out of 10 is a plumbers vent pipe running straight up thru where the light fixture is clearly showing on the prints.
Lots of times they are quite large pipes and are drilled very close, almost touching the drywall edge at the sink side which means even a pancake box is not going to be able to be secured if installed at that spot clearly showing on the prints. Pretty much gets plumbers really upset when I take out the sawzall and cut down the vent pipe and leave a note explaining how a real journeyman plumber knows how to look at the blueprints before installing pipes.................
 
K8MHZ said:
I agree that you should install per plan and collect on the change order. So what the drywall and paint work needs to be done? Sub it out and charge them for it.

Why should anyone bother taking the time to make good prints when the electrician is willing to skip over a few rules and gets the inspector to sign off?

I'll bet the plans get better after they get charged a few times for their errors and/or mid work changes.

Some EC's make all their money on change orders. And good for them, too.
Click to expand...


Good plans? Ha-ha that's funny. This is a 5000 sqft house. They do not usually include electrical plans. The electrical is drawn up by us and the decorator or homeowner at the time of rough.

Skip a few rules? Which ones?
110 ,3.B -- umm ok. The labelled and listed box does not specify either new construction or old work use.

314.23(C)-Common sense tells you that an old work box must be installed to a finished surface.

The inspector is claiming that because it is called an old work box, it can not be used on a new construction job. That is how he is saying that I violated 110.3.(B)

He is saying that ALL boxes must be mounted to the structure in a new construction job. That is NOT what 314.23 says.
He is claiming the term "finished surface" used in 314.23(C) is defined as after the CO and homeowner moves in.

If you don't agree with the methods I used and described, that's fine. Show me the code to back up the stated violations.

Read some of the above posts, you will see the same inspector's interpretation of 404.2 is not correct as well.

Shouldn't be this hard. The code book is not difficult.


I would point out that if the inspector wants to hang his hat on the two interpretations about old work boxes, perhaps he could review Art 90.4, the second paragraph.
I would argue that an old work box, when installed accordingly with the NEC and as recognized in Art 314.23(C), provides the same level of safety as a new work box.
 
Found this on the MH question site for equipment UL listed for old work used in new construction:

Can Fixture Listed for Remodel be Installed?

Dear Mike, recently I had an electrical inspector interpret NEC Section 110-3(b) to mean that equipment with a UL listing for "old work" cannot be used in "new" construction. The job was a remodel of an existing store where the ceiling was dropped 5 inches. The engineer specified a recessed can that requires only 4 inches, however it is listed and labeled "remodel". The inspector said that because the drywall ceiling was new, we had to use equipment listed for new construction. The difference being that the fixture listed for new construction mounts to the ceiling-framing members, while the remodel fixture fastens to the drywall. I find this to be an interesting interpretation that I have never run into before. Would you please give me your opinion?

UL Response:

A number of recessed luminaire manufacturers provide ?remodel-housing? versions of their products. The ?remodel? term is the manufacturer?s way of designating that the housing can be installed from below the ceiling. The remodel version is used to minimize the amount of refinishing necessary to complete the installation. The concept of such luminaries is the same as for the use and installation of an ?old work? box. The opening to install the box, or in this case, luminaire, is cut into the finished surface and the device is installed through this opening.

This does not mean that a ?new construction? luminaire (or ?new construction? box) cannot be used for a remodeling installation. ?New construction? versions of these products can be used. The refinishing of the ceiling will be more involved than with the use of the remodel version of the product since the hole in the finished surface will in all likelihood need to be much larger to accommodate the mounting means.

Relative to Underwriters Laboratories, the requirements for ?remodel-housing? and non-?remodel-housing? luminaries are the same. They are both mounted as intended when evaluated for UL Listing. Thus, from UL?s evaluation of the luminaire itself, a ?remodel-housing? could be used in new construction. As the remodel housing luminaire is fastened to the ceiling itself instead of the ceiling-framing members, the luminaire may be somewhat cumbersome to work with if it is wired prior to installation of the finish ceiling.

Mr. Walter Daus
Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Phone: 847-272-8800, ext. 43588

Also, there is an old forum post from 2009 titled "Installation of Old Work boxes in New Construction" that may answer the OP's question.
 
I have been an inspector for over 25 years. Occasionally, I have worked along side of inspectors who have been lacking in enough discernment to make good judgement calls. As it often turns out many of these inspectors are either new to the profession or are carrying some pathology from childhood issues.This is another crazy making case. In most cases if you have the time and patience to do so, you can fight the matter to the highest levels and get common sense results. Many people fear "bucking' inspectors for fear of retribution. Do not fall into this trap. If you have your ducks in a row and haven respectfully proven your case to a higher authority, it is often that the inspector will be more circumspect when evaluating your work. A wise inspector will not want to be caught engaging in the appearance of retaliation. Get it on record!
 
Last edited:
edward said:
It seems like it 11.3(B) is a way out for inspectors.

They can't find a code section they use 110.3
They don't like your install they use 110.3

and the list goes on.

From my understanding, the AHJ can use 110.3 but he/she has to have UL or manufacturer documentation or another code section to back up his concern.
Click to expand...
I will not accept 110.3(B) violation without also referencing the listing or instructions that are being violated. You need both before you have something that is wrong. It is one thing for inspector to ask if something was listed for a purpose, but if they are going to formally reject it, they better have proper documentation.

Inspectorsixx said:
It scares me to know that both the field inspector and the Chief are teaching code classes.



I want to go back to 90.1(A)- Purpose
and
90.1(C)- Intention
Click to expand...
If this is a problem throughout the jurisdiction - you need to partner up with other EC's and do something about it or these people running the show will continue to abuse their authority.


Your inspector sounds like he needs to be "fastened to the structure" like a big game trophy. People can come over to your house and you can show them your trophies.... over hear we have an Elk, a moose, a deer and I got this electrical inspector over here on this one job I was working at...:lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top