Old Work Estimate

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RADHAZMAN

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Charleston, SC
I received a call to give an estimate and looked at the house. The lady is remodeling her kitchen. New cabinets, range, dishwasher, install new diaposal (none exists) is an old house 100A service old Federal Pacific Load Center with a few blank spaces. Pre romex wiring no grounding wire.
1. Homeowner wants 1 outlet moved up the wall at counter top height
2. Take out existing range and dishwasher and install new. Plumber will do all plumbing. A receptacle exists for the range.
3. Relocate under cabinet range hood. Approx 6 inches to the right of existing location.
4. Install a new circuit for a sink disposal and switch.
5. Change 1 single gang receptacle box to a 2 gang and one 2 gang to a 3 gang.
6. Either 1 recessed can light or track lighting in kitchen. This replaces existing 2 ft flourscent behind cabnet valance above sink. Currently she is undecided and is telling me her decision tomorrow. There is an existing switch and attic access.
7. Remove existing floodlight on sofit of house and replace with a new floodlight. Standard 2 lamp type.
8. Two 4 in. junction boxes.

I do not know if Federal Pacific Breakers are still available. The panel is in bad shape and I told the homeowner to maybe consider replacing the load center especially if no breaker can be found because then I could not install the new home run for the disposal.



#1. $65.00
#2. $75.00
#3. $32.50
#4. $100.00
#5. $130.00
#6. $95.00
#7. $65.00
#8. $65.00
Total $627.50

This is labor only. Homeowner supplying all material except for J Boxes, 2 and 3 gang boxes and misc like staples etc. I have to add permit fees also to this.

I am thinking of quoting a price of $600.00 to replace the load center?

I have not given the estimate but the following is what I am considering at this point. I would appreciate any comments and if you think I am in the ball park with my estimate. I am a 2 man team and have not done much bidding at this point, just starting out ( part time for the time being) and have no overhead at this point. I am licensed but my partner is not.
Thanks
 
IMO if the house contains a FPE panel than the other components of the the service should be replaced as well since they have come near the end of their life expectancy. A new panel would help but in this situation it is most likely a band-aid. I would figure on installing a new service.
 
Thanks for your replies at this point. Yes I have no over head at this time due to just starting up and not full time at this point. I realize this will change as business picks up and I go full time.

I also agree about a new panel being a band aid but the HO is an older woman retired lives alone and will not spring for a new service to be installed and may not spring for the cost of a new panel installation.

At this point I do not know if I can even find the correct Federal Pacific Breaker to install the disposal circuit. I searched the web for FED PACIFIC breakers and there seems to be several types which are not interchangable in all their panels. I have to go back and pull a breaker and get a part number.
 
Home depot use to sell Federal Pacific breakers. Haven't been there in a while so I am not sure if they still do. They are pricey but cheaper than a new installation.
 
Rad, in my opinion, your prices are half of what they should be. Each item you listed will take longer than your prices allow for.

I also agree that the FP panel should be replaced, but again, for at least twice what you have listed, just to cover materials.
 
OW Est.

OW Est.

Radhazman, If your in business w/ those prices you won't be there long. I would never allow the HO to supply his own materials except lighting fixtures (to me they aren't worth my hassle, craked class and the like) Your the electrician. FWIW
 
RADHAZMAN said:
I am a 2 man team and have not done much bidding at this point, just starting out ( part time for the time being) and have no overhead at this point. I am licensed but my partner is not.
Thanks
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No overhead you say? This tells me you haven't pulled a permit yet. When you go to get your permit they will ask for a business license ( overhead ). Getting a business license may require a bond ( overhead ). Are you forming a partnership or is the other guy working for you? Are you going to work on a house with an FP panel without insurance ( not wise )?

Are you going to use any tools working on this house ( overhead ). Are you going to start to file quarterly taxes to stay clear of the IRS ( overhead ). Are you going to get commercial insurance for the vehicle that you are now useing for business purposes ( overhead ).

Part time or full time, when you do your first job you are in business and are responsible for anything that happens. Figure out what it will cost to do the job completely legal and give a price with this in mind.

Good Luck and have fun.
 
I had overhead before I went into business. I believe everyone has overhead, even employees. As an employee you're really in business for yourself. No one is forcing you to work at your current job. You're free to sell yourself and your services to another company and negotiate your fees. So in my opinion everyone is really in business for themsleves and has overhead.

As an employee I had to have a car to get work. I had to put gas in the car to get to work. I consider this overhead. I got transfered to another plant and my drive went from 10 miles to 60 miles. I didn't get a pay increase and my fuel costs went up by more than double so my overhead also increased.

If you're in business even part time you have overhead.
I also believe your prices are way too low.

If you're doing it part time why not price your jobs as if you were in business full time with all the overhead expenses. Why cheat yourself because you have low overhead. If you've got another job it's not going to kill you if you don't get every job. I think you would be a lot better off charging what you will need to charge when in business full time now and save the extra money for working capital when you decide to go full time. You're going to need it. :)
 
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I appreciate all of your inputs here. All of you have brought up some very good points, a few I actually have thought of at times. Being bonded and insured and having a business license are two of them. I just have not received enough jobs to cover all of that and would do it once I start getting more work which brings sufficient income to cover it all.

So I guess I need some advice to know how to find out what I need to be bidding since all of you said I was way too low. Can any of you help me with that?

Also can anyone share with me an effective affordable advertising method that is not too expensive and gives good exposure?

I have bid several larger jobs and never seem to get them. So I thought maybe I was too high for the rates for this area.

Thanks again larryfine, lowryder88h, growler, and aline all of you brought up very good points
 
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So, let's get this straight - you have a license, but no business permit or insurance.

you have partner, but no company.

you are priced more than 1/2 what you should be priced at, thereby hurting the legitimate, legal contractors in your area (that have a business license and insurance)

I can say, kudos for asking before submitting that price. Do yourself a favor and walk away from it. Walk away until you can save up money for a business permit and insurance.

What happens if you find the circuit breaker for that FPE panel? you do the job, everything is fine. 3 months later, she has a fire because of the panel. Has nothing to do with you. But you were the last one to work there.

They find out that you never pulled a permit for the job, (without a business license and insurance, how do you pull one?) or you had the HO pull it (who's gonna believe that a retired old lady did the work herself)

Then they find out you don't have insurance.

Is the potential downside worth the $627.50?

Stick to your dayjob until you build up some capital to cover your overhead.
 
We see this many times, someone trying to jump into business without the needed business know how, and experience in contracting. Electrical contracting is not a hobby, or part time venture, it requires a number of years of experience, and a fair amount of dollars invested, even on the lowest level of entry, going in on a shoe string, is inviting disaster.

Now for those that are ready to jump in, and claim, you did it, and now you have a great business, your the exception not the rule, for everyone that started with shoe string , and made it, nine others din't, I am not saying don't go in business, just be prepared if you do.

"The lady is remodeling her kitchen. New cabinets, range, dishwasher, install new diaposal", and she had money for that, but not the electrical work, where have I heard that before.
 
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Look at the list of overhead expenses below and determine how much expense you'll have for each when you quit your job and go into business full time.
Use a cost calculator like this one. http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/

Start selling jobs at the prices you'll need to sell them at when you quit your job and go full time. If you can't sell jobs at this price now you may want to reconsider going into business. It's not going to get any easier to sell them when your on your own and desperate for work. Seems easy to have plenty of work when your doing it part time but when you go full time and you rely on these jobs to pay your house payment and buy groceries it can hurt when it gets slow. Lowering your prices to get work doesn't help either if your not covering your business expenses and paying yourself enough to cover your personal expenses.

The toughest part isn't figuring out how much to charge. The toughest part is being able to sell at that price.

Also can anyone share with me an effective affordable advertising method that is not too expensive and gives good exposure?
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I'm still looking for one. I don't think there is one. :)

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I guess I should be a little more positive.

Don't worry about a thing. Your prices are right where they should be. Electrical contracting is easy. You don't have to worry about things like overhead because electrical contractors don't have any.

Do quality work and you'll have people lined up waiting for you no matter how much you charge. If you can't do quality work then just make sure you're the lowest price and you'll have plenty of work as well. Either way you can't lose.

Don't worry about advertising or learning how to sell because people will be hounding you night and day wanting you to come do electrical work for them. You'll get sick and tired of the phone ringing all the time and will have to take it off the hook just to get some rest.

You'll soon have more money than you ever imagined and will be able to spend all your time fishing.

What're you waiting for.
Jump on in.
The water's great!
Unless you don't know how to swim. :)
 
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emahler said:
I agree, God I hate that reality stuff, it's so darn negative:)
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It is what you make it.


aline said:
I guess I should be a little more positive.
Click to expand...

Every little bit helps...

aline said:
Don't worry about a thing. Your prices are right where they should be.
Click to expand...

It would be safe to say that you don't know what his costs are, don't know what the job entails from the original post, and don't know anything about his area. Is this correct?
It is easy to compare apples to oranges sometimes.

aline said:
Do quality work and you'll have people lined up waiting for you no matter how much you charge.
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If you find that niche market, yup, this is a correct statement.
Fantastic point here. Once word gets around that you do this type of work, advertising budgets can be slashed big time. Word of mouth advertising is the utmost best way of running a business IMO.

aline said:
Don't worry about advertising or learning how to sell because people will be hounding you night and day wanting you to come do electrical work for them. You'll get sick and tired of the phone ringing all the time and will have to take it off the hook just to get some rest.
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Tell me about it, there are days I shut the phone off, or don't answer if it is from outside my area. It took awhile to get at this point, it wasn't done overnight, but anyone can get here. It take perseverance, and hard work.

I think if the OP can make a couple bucks on this job, and sell the customer on some extras, he can start his way to a very successful business and career.
Agreed he should look into becoming a legit contractor in the eyes of his area, but to scare him into believing that contracting is a hard, sometimes mind wrenching pain in the butt endeavor is lame. It isn't hard, unless you make it this way.

Rad, go make some money and have fun. You ain't hurting any industry.
 
I just don't understand how you can advocate putting his entire future at risk for $627.50. That doesn't seem really responsible to me.

No business permit, no insurance, at best a HO pulled construction permit, with an FPE panel....simple or not, this is a recipe for disaster.
 
It would be safe to say that you don't know what his costs are, don't know what the job entails from the original post, and don't know anything about his area. Is this correct?
It is easy to compare apples to oranges sometimes.
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You're 100% correct. That's why I never stated what his price should be only that I believed it to be too low. Only he can determine what his price should be. That's why I only gave suggestions for determining what his price should be.
However there is one thing I'm certain of. He has overhead.

Word of mouth and referrals are a great form of advertising but don't happen overnight. It takes time.

If you find that niche market, yup, this is a correct statement.
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If I won the lottery I'd be rich too.
Have any suggestions for niche markets that don't require a lot of capital to get into?

Tell me about it, there are days I shut the phone off
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I'm sure your customers appreciate that.
You could hire someone to answer these calls for you.
 
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