Old work miscellaneous questions

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flick

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I'm curious to know what other contractors are doing in regards to some of the old work problems they come across. My backround is in the industrial area, and I didn't do a lot of residential until I started my contracting business early this year.

I live in NE Ohio, and most of the older homes I deal with are lath and plaster construction. I use Raco old work boxes a lot, the metal ones with the folding sheet metal ears that tighten up against the sides of the box and the plaster. They seem to work well. The problem is that they require an oversized hole to install, and I wonder what others do as far as sealing around the box between the box and plaster. I have thought about latex caulk, but I'm not sure if there's a flammability issue with cured caulk. I've been using patching plaster, but it's very time consuming and messy. Any suggestions?

I've also picked up an assortment of tools that I find indispensible: greenlee long flexible auger bits, pieces of small chain to drop down into walls, 4" hole saws, fiberglass fish sticks, etc. I'm curious to know what other folks feel are great tools. Any info would be much appreciated.

Thanks for the advice.

John

[ November 09, 2005, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: flick ]
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I do mostly old work myself, but I don't like the metal boxes you mentioned. I prefer the kind that use F-clamps because they don't require the oversized openings. You can cut the hole you need for the box, then slide the F-clamps in along the sides. This method results in a box that doesn't have large gaps and doesn't need any caulking around it.

I use the same tools you mentioned. I've tried to use a RotoZip for making cuts on the plaster/lath construction, but I've found it lacking. I stick to hole saws and jigsaws instead.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I have 2 high-tech tools that I find very useful in old-work.

One is an Amprobe AT-4003 wire tracer that is good for following circuits in walls, floors, etc.

Two is a borescope (ProVision brand). This lets me look in walls with an easily repaired 1/2 inch hole. Too many uses to mention. I can also follow the path of a long Greenlee bit with it.

Mark
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

That's a great suggestion Busman. I'm going to pick up a scope. It will save a lot of repair time.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I recently picked up an Amprobe AT-2005. It's not cheap (over $900), but it's well worth the cost. Very useful for tracing/finding wires without having to bust open walls or open up boxes.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Two to four plain old wire coat hangers are one of the closely guarded trade secrets for me. I use one at a time, but I tend to leave them absentmindedly, or I want one at each level of the building. They are generally easy to replace.

I agree that "F" clips (so called Madison clips, or EZEins, or box supports) are the way to secure metal gangable switch boxes with plaster ears. One can even increase the reach of a single Madison by adding a second.

One of the reasons my van is so full is I try to carry a couple of every different kind of box I run into at suppliers. The heap in the middle is where most of them are. The building and the wiring alteration dictates the box that will best work, not my expectation of what I am most likely to need. Plastic or metal each have specific value. And, sometimes, the only solution is to cut a hole and install an 11B with a plaster ring, but that happens rarely.

Seeing where the building isn't, has been a huge aid. Most situations allow me to predict the run of the joists and studs accurately from the visible cues of the building. Then thinking about the "least labor" install of the old wiring method aids greatly in sussing out the old system (or systems, as there will probably be two or three different wiring methods installed in a plaster and lathe structure).
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

there is one trick i learned, but the scope may negate its use: drilling and fishing into and from a middle dead space (no access) I found that if I attached a run of light mono line to the end of one fish stick, and and on another fish stick made a hook that turned in on itself (so that it wouldn't catch hole edges on way back out), I could hook the mono (push the feeder stick all the way in and then back off; twist the puller stick a few times) and pull it back out from a spool in the feeder room without any drag. I could usually tell that I hooked it before I pulled thru any holes.

I never lost any plaster with rotozips, but did with jigsaws and puller type blades.

there is a trick for plaster that is a bit risky but i did it well a few times. a good hole saw can cut a hole in the plaster without cracking it. save it. don't cut thru the lathe, break out what you need to fish the wire along. leave enough to support the plaster piece when mudded back in place. for the detail work use light weight spackle after the piece has set. The thing about light weight spackle is that it won't stick to your boots/pants and brush against some remaining wall paper or whatever. If it falls on a rug, it won't attach itself; picks up like crumbs.

I liked the deep plastic where they would fit because I could make up the whole box with receptacle before inserting box into wall. with the metal boxes it was easier to keep wire space down by keeping everything at a minimum when it was outside the wall. receptacle could even be wired, just not screwed in, when using madison clips.

There is something I did that was questionable and some here would rake me over the coals so to speak, so lets say i didn't really do it, but saw someone else do it (did-it-himselfer, not a do-it-yourselfer, so to speak). When a structural piece of wood was present in some benificient location, I would use a screw or two to help hold the box in place.

real plaster will "set" a box in place where the plaster is damaged or the hole too big for clips or ears.

more tips later.

paul
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I like the idea of just going through the plaster and not the lathe with the hole saw. Will have to try that. I also use maddison straps and old work boxes. I've been wanting to try the "smart box" I think Arlington makes them. They look real good in the ads. Has anyone ever tried them? Price? I can't find them in the supply houses in my neck of the woods.

Also I won't use a flex bit. Too dangerous IMO. I feel I must know what is on both sides of the joist/stud before I drill. Especially joists. That means taking out a 2" x 4" piece of drywall from the center of each joist or 4" hole saw on center of joist. I will screw the piece back in when I'm done but I will not do any patching work. That is not what I'm there for. I make sure the customer understands this before I start. I just don't think they want to be paying me for drywall patching. I'm probably more expensive and less competent at it than the average handyman or painter.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

chelectrical,

I'm with you. Blind drilling with a flex-bit is a crap-shoot. Thats what I use the scope for. I drill a 5/8 hole in each cavity and have a look at the drill bits intended path. Then I do the drilling and use some easy-sand 20 to patch the 5/8 holes. Leave it to the HO to paint.

Not for everyone, but it works for me - and I haven't drilled any cables, water pipes, etc. since I got the scope.

I like the idea of a 4 inch hole saw on the joist. That would give access to 2 cavities and let you screw the drywall piece back to the joist. Learn something new everyday.

Mark

[ November 09, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: busman ]
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

chelectrical,

I have used the Smat Box a few time lately and they seem to work great. I understand they now make a horizontal mounted box, have not yet tried that one. SmartHomeUSA

Norb
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Smart boxes cost me about a buck for the single gang. They are one big bang for the buck. I use them all the time now. One thing I hate to see is where an appliance cord is dissapearing into a big punched out hole in a wall and attached to a receptacle in a dangling clip in non metallic old work box, that got shoved too hard.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I do almost all old work. Here's some things in my bag of tricks:

Mason line with lead solder weight
Fish Sticks
#4 solid coppper (to fish with when you can't fish "straight" with a fish stick)
Roto Zip with plaster bits
Smart Boxes (best thing a man invented in a while)
Wall Eye lighted wall periscope
Diversibits
4-1/8" hole saw
3-5/8" hole saw
Regular metal wall boxes with ears and #4 x 1/2" wood screws (screw the ears directly to the lath on the top and bottom, instead of using madisons; much sturdier)
Caddy low voltage rings.

...and lots of patience. Say, you guys patch your own holes? I try not to make any. When I do, I just casually point to them and say to the owner, "you'll have to patch that", and I go about my business. :D
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

one thing i forgot to mention when not going thru the lathe, is that you might not have a choice which lathe to cut, the plaster foot will sometimes break off, sometimes not.

i haven't done this for a while and there seems like some interesting new toys/things out there.

the idea of drilling an investigation hole has many variations, especially without that camera, or whatever it is. i was looking for one up until i stopped doing this type of work. one method is to drill a smaller hole (i/8") and use a small piece of wire with a bend to see if there are any obstructions around hole. a little wiggling and unseen pipes and wires can be "seen". a set of matched spade bits with the tip cut off one can be used to drill right up to pipes/wires. start the hole with regular but stop short of pilot center piercing other side. using almost centerless bit, keep checking depth until a thin shell left. you can just break it out. i did this where i had to drill into bays where wires were to put a box in, only place for the box. only need about 3/16ths of a center piece for the second bit.

i still enjoy thinking about the solutions/problems with this type of work. customers liked my work as the house wasn't a disaster when i left. whether they knew it or not, they paid me well enough to be good at small hole patching (any big box matches paint).

good luck guys

paul
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Paul,

The "scope thing" is a fiber optic system (think colonoscopy and you've got the right idea"). It has a built in light and works like a flexible periscope - about 1/2 diameter, 36" long and waterproof. About $300. A bit pricey, but I think it is worth it.

Mark
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

If I need a hand hole in a wall I generally cut the hole the size of a low volt ring and slap on a blank. Looks good and they can paint it or patch it later.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Thanks for all the tips. I've been looking at those borescopes. Very nice indeed. Just haven't purchased one yet.

I use a lightweight chain instead of the mason line/lead weight. I can usually get the chain down thru a hole, even if there's a firestop further down. Then I can tie on my cable using the chain loops. It works pretty well for me.

As far as repairing plaster? I generally don't. If it's a remodel job, I don't do it at all. I SOMETIMES do it for the "little old man or woman" who wouldn't know who to turn to to get it fixed on a very small job, maybe one or two holes. But then, I take extra care while making the holes in the first place.

Madison grips are nice, but I've had trouble sometimes on really thick walls. They just aren't long enough. How do you extend them?

I haven't had any trouble with the long flex bits and hitting anything blind. I try to scope out the plumbing before hand and only use them where I'm "almost positive" there's nothing inside. The problem I have with them is that they wear out too quickly. I've been thinking about trying the Labor Saving Devices brand of flexible long spade bits. Easy to resharpen with a file so they say.

The main thing on all of this work seems to be time. I do T&M on this type of work when it's a rewire or heavy remodel. If I have to bid, I bid high because I've lost my shirt a few times. The biggest problem I have with T&M is that the customers just don't understand what is involved, even when I explain it to them. They start to get antsy pretty quick!

Thanks again for all the advice.

John
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Originally posted by flick:
Madison grips are nice, but I've had trouble sometimes on really thick walls. They just aren't long enough. How do you extend them?
Click to expand...
They come in two sizes. The short regular ones, and long ones. I buy the long ones only, and cut them off a bit if I need them shorter.

Originally posted by flick:
The problem I have with them is that they wear out too quickly. I've been thinking about trying the Labor Saving Devices brand of flexible long spade bits. Easy to resharpen with a file so they say.
Click to expand...
I take my long flex bits to the same shop that sharpens my hole saws and nail eater bits. I think it only costs 2 dollars to get a flex bit sharpened.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I've been looking into the ProVision borescopes, too. For those of you who use them, do you have the regular version, or the heavy-duty version? I generally buy heavy-duty everything, but I'm wondering if the extra armor would make the thing clunkier, or if the regular one is too delicate.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

Originally posted by flick:
The biggest problem I have with T&M is that the customers just don't understand what is involved, even when I explain it to them. They start to get antsy pretty quick!


John
Click to expand...
I've ran into that as well. Any advice from the more experienced on that one? Seems as though sometimes it doesn't matter what you say upfront, they have an opinion on how long the job should take and then start getting antsy when it takes longer than they figured it should.
 
Re: Old work miscellaneous questions

I like to bore/scare them with all the potential problems that may be lurking where I can't see them. If they still have a fixed idea of how much time it's supposed to take, I tell them I can't give them a fixed bid unless they open everything up so I can find out what we're dealing with.

I've been burned too many times by hidden problems that ate up plenty of time while I worked under a fixed bid. I only do fixed bids now if everything is opened up or if I can see everything I'm working on (e.g., a service upgrade). Otherwise, it's T&M.
 
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