Older Home Wiring Option

[WasGSOHM]

Stupid question, not familiar with the circuit analyzer, what information would it be providing to assist with the uncertainty? I might find it a useful investment.

At least bad connections, if I recall.
I think it also finds neutral to ground wire connections if they are at least 15' from the panel.
It's like $600 but it should sell necessary work to the HOs. They just have to read the display rather than take your word for it.

You may also want a Time Domain Reflectometer unit so you can find a bad connection within 0.1 foot. Only one guy here had one, that I remember.

All these houses are wired incompetently and yet no rise in house fires? Something else is at work here.

 

[James L]

All these houses are wired incompetently and yet no rise in house fires? Something else is at work here.

House fires aren't the only byproduct of shoddy work. Most of it just has the stamp of an amateur on it - even when it's wired by "pros"

 

[ptonsparky]

I have an older tdr but no way I can .1 ft

 

[ramsy]

If.. there was a fire and you were the last one to touch it.

I believe insurance claims for any casualty, or even renter's damage can trigger contractor liability.

If not disqualified over the phone, insurance inspectors can disqualify for missing batteries in smokes / CO, even before checking remodel-wiring hazards in kitchen, bath, or fuse box upgrades.

It doesn't matter if industry exploits the public to beta test emerging safety technology, before firmware updates. AFCI's that passed adopted NRTL test standard (UL 1699) wont be put on trial. If AFCI's are locally adopted, but missing on cable-wiring methods, judicial precedent won't force insurance to pay for the Safety or Fire code violations. Accident attorneys will attach property and other deep pockets, leaving them with nothing.

 

[ramsy]

The standards that property insurance demands may differentiate contractors who are specialized enough to make those requirements a point in their bid policy. However, the economy is not driven by developers incentivized by insurance standards. Developers demand indemnity from sub-contractor negligence, as do inspector municipalities issuing permits; neither are party to the cause insurance may find for denying some future claim.

However, code defines property owners with equal right and responsibility as Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) during construction or alterations. Perhaps, having the only skin in the game, owners that hire ignoramuses do so at their own peril, since owners bear all losses after those contractors are long gone.

 

[growler]

Ideal makes a circuit analyzer #61-165 or some such number.
Scoping out the job with one of these may reduce some of the uncertainty of what is behind the walls.

What you get with the Ideal circuit analyzer to indicate bad connections is a higher than normal voltage drop measurement.

The higher than normal voltage drop readings can be caused by longer than normal home runs or by loose old back stab connections.

One thing that's easy enough to do in an old house is to replace all old receptacles and pig tail the splice and use the screw terminals on the receptacles.

Another thing to do on old houses is to remove old light fixtures and check the condition of the wiring in the junction boxes. If the house is old enough there will probably be burned or brittle insulation on the wiring in these junction boxes. It's often possible to get rid of this bad wiring and splice in a short piece of good wiring inside the junction box ( or use the heat shrink insulation ).

You can do a lot to old wiring to make it safer.

 

[WasGSOHM]

I have an older tdr but no way I can .1 ft

Post the specs.
I once tried to buy a broken one so I could fix it myself.

And with a fast pulse generator (1/4 nS risetime) and a good scope, you can make your own, but I don't have those kind of bucks.

 

[Fred B]

I have an older home that am working on circa 1970, been atleast one newer rework but still with the older wiring, all older NM 60^o C. Question, why hasn't it burned down? Found multiple sliced conductors both hot and neutrals. In the j boxes, panels, and receptacles. Haven't opened them all as scope of job it wasn't called for.
Slices just like this.

Another question, could those slices have only opened over time and not noticable on initial installation where wire was only scored then opened as they aged? Looks like whomever did installation while removing NM sheath with a blade cut into the conductors.
Also found evidence of heating on the breakers. Have recommended rewire but owner is unwilling so how dangerous of a situation is this? Or am I being over cautious? And what is my level of liability for not doing a complete rewire? Would doing a full megger be advisable as it would definitely show the damaged insulation? Or is there another way to test proof of wire condition?

So as to not totally highjack thread opened another thread in troubleshooting. (Why hasn't it burned down?) Looking for information.

 

[growler]

I have an older home that am working on circa 1970, been atleast one newer rework but still with the older wiring, all older NM 60^o C. Question, why hasn't it burned down?

Wiring like that needs repaired but is not really that dangerous. If a hot wire touches a bare ground or a neutral it should trip the breaker. A poor splice or corroded connection is more dangerous because it will not trip a breaker but will give off lots of heat.

You can tape or shrink tube wiring like that and provide the needed insulation. At one time splices in boxes were soldered and taped and that was all the insulation that was provided for the splice and those homes have been around for years.

 

[williamphelps]

None.

If they won't go for the rewire, leave it alone. The last thing you need is you getting in trouble because there was a fire and you were the last one to touch it. Just replacing the breakers with AFCIs and doing nothing else is going to show you knew of the problems and just put a band-aid on them.

You have to consider the liability here.

-Hal

You are so right Thanks Hal

 

[williamphelps]

I would consider putting GFCI breakers in suspect areas and forget about AFCIs. You'll only start chasing your tail with old wiring and AFCI. If you could just rewire parts that you know about and also add some GFCI, I think it will be safer then what you have now.

Kind of my thought Thanks for the post!

 

[williamphelps]

maybe a little of both options? update critical loads , gf gen use....? ~RJ~

All good food for thought. Thanks

 

[williamphelps]

Another question, given what was discussed before, is whether you'd want to touch it at all with all of the unknowns. Certainly replacing the panel/breakers will help detect some problem when they happen, but if you have a method for finding these illicit splices I'd be inclined to spend a day looking for more of them. You'll have to look for MWBCs, bootleg grounds, etc anyway otherwise when you change the panel.

I'd also get the "I know the whole place needs rewiring" in writing from the customer.

All good advice!

 

[williamphelps]

How old is the house? Does it have EGs? MWBC were very common.
Some questionable practices were quite legal at one time.

GFCI, AFCI, or dual function breakers, at minimum you will need to isolate the circuits. Make sure the neutrals are not tied together anywhere but at the SE neutral bar if you attempt to use any of them.

We really haven’t had any issues with dual function breakers but generally they’ve been going on newer homes or circuits we’ve added.

As far as AF breakers go, GE's THQL1120AF2 does not require neutral separation and with handle ties works just fine with MWBCs. Huge timesaver. Then throw in a GFCI at first receptical and you have a descently updated circuit. Ideally the job attached to this post would be better with as many dual function AFGF breakers as I can make function. All other circuits will require more time. I am retired and enjoy the challenge. The AF2s will be backup to that plan.