Oldtimers Only - GFCI Question

[tom baker]

There are several posts on AFCIs and jurisdictions not adoping the AFCI requirements of the 2008 NEC due to cost.
Was there the same outcry about GFCIs back in the early 1970s? One of the first GFCI's I purchased cost $30 in 1976.
Nusiance tripping has been cited with AFCIs, one of the most common reason for an AFCI to trip is an inadvertant neutral to ground connection, same as a GFCI.
In fact I heard the GFCIs made liars out of many electricans, they said there were no wiring errors, but then the GFCI would nusiance trip....
Thousands of lives have been saved with GFCIs, that cost less than a movie ticket.

 

[peter d]

Thousands of lives have been saved with GFCIs, that cost less than a movie ticket.

That hazard that a GFCI is designed to mitigate is far different from the hazard that an AFCI is. One prevents electrocution, the other prevents (allegedly) fires.

I think it's an apples to hamburgers comparison.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Tom, I clearly remember the outcry back then but it wasn't as loud for we could get by with one or two per house. To me, the arc faults are a good thing but my fear is not the cost as is the problem in the load centers with all the heat. Gfci could be placed anywhere but that is not much of an option for the arc faults.

 

[Jomaul]

We had the same out cry's back then with GFI's as there are today about AFCI's. When the GFI's first came out we only had to use them in the kitchen. Then the next code cycle we installed them wherever any sinks sinks were.Its the same today you started only putting AFCI's in the bedrooms. Then you started doing the whole house. If an arc fault causes a fire then why would you not protect the whole house? I have had arc fault breakers in 2 of my homes and had 1 trip once in 4 years. What ever arguments you can make for arc fault breakers today we had the same when GFI's came out, and now you install them without thinking about it.

 

[iwire]

Tom, I clearly remember the outcry back then but it wasn't as loud for we could get by with one or two per house.

I think that is an excellent point. I am sure folks did not like GFCIs either but we have to admit the implementation was much slower. GFCIs have been required for what? 30-35 years? and they still are only required in a few spots.

On the other hand AFCI went from not required to whole house protection in 3 code cycles and during that time they still have not got the design perfected.

I think the outcry would have been less if they had not been so aggressive in the application of them.

 

[John Arendt]

As one in a stste that amended the AFCI's out (NJ) I have a question/comment.

I am of the opinion that the current AFCI device 'protects' wiring up to the outlet, but not what is plugged into the outlet. Fact?

IF that is fact, then how many fires are caused by 'house wiring' as opposed to 'things' plugged into outlets?

Thought this was a hot topic somewhere/sometime.

 

[480sparky]

Plus, the required use of GFCIs were increased gradually over time. Go back to 1978, and GFIs were only required in bathrooms, garages and outside. Slowly, kitchens, unfinished basements, crawlspaces, wet bars, laundrys, etc. were added to the list.

Image what would happen if we went from the 1978 requirements to the 2008 in one code cycle.

 

[charlie]

When the GFCI's first came out we only had to use them in the kitchen.

I seem to remember that they were only required for the bathrooms in the 1975 cycle. then the 1978 cycle had the definition for a bathroom since no one knew what a bathroom was anymore. The big thing was that the GFCI was only available in a circuit breaker to start with and they quickly became available as a receptacle. The cost of the GFCI receptacle was and is significantly less than a GFCI circuit breaker. The cost was minimal and the safety provided was without question. No part of that last sentence can be applied to AFCI circuit breakers today. :smile:

 

[John Arendt]

OK, now if the '08 gets adopted and the AFCI's are NOT amended out, that would make a very interesting situation. One shot; boom.

As to the GFI thing, yes, gradual reduced the complaining, and the increase in demand reduced the costs.

 

[480sparky]

I seem to remember that they were only required for the bathrooms in the 1975 cycle. then the 1978 cycle had the definition for a bathroom since no one knew what a bathroom was anymore.

That is correct. :smile:

 

[augie47]

Along with being "phased in" over a longer period of time, I believe that the ability to actually see the GFCI "do it's job" helped it's acceptance.
A cord being left out in the rain, a drill that allowed you to feel minor lekage, etc. all tripped the GFCI. For a brief period there were even "demo" boards where you could "touch-test" the GFCI.
It was obvious that they did the job they were intended to do. I've yet to see someone demostrate a AFCI working. May have been done, just not widely published.

 

[480sparky]

Along with being "phased in" over a longer period of time, I believe that the ability to actually see the GFCI "do it's job" helped it's acceptance.
A cord being left out in the rain, a drill that allowed you to feel minor lekage, etc. all tripped the GFCI. For a brief period there were even "demo" boards where you could "touch-test" the GFCI.
It was obvious that they did the job they were intended to do. I've yet to see someone demostrate a AFCI working. May have been done, just not widely published.

Unfortunately, it was always considered the GFIs problem when it tripped. Everyone's attitude was "My drill/cord/saw/hairdryer worked just fine before you installed that thing!"

 

[crossman]

I am of the opinion that the current AFCI device 'protects' wiring up to the outlet, but not what is plugged into the outlet. Fact?

I haven't heard that. IMHO based on rudimentary electrical theory, it seems that an arcing fault in a plugged in cord would also trip the AFCI breaker.

 

[iwire]

I haven't heard that. IMHO based on rudimentary electrical theory, it seems that an arcing fault in a plugged in cord would also trip the AFCI breaker.

The word on the street was that for the first generation AFCIs the arcing fault had to draw at least 70 amps of load to be seen. This meant that far enough down a circuit, particularly a 16 AWG cord the circuit could not produce a 70 amp arc.

I have no proof of this, it's just what has been posted before.

The new generation AFCIs required to be used starting 1/1/08 in any area under the 2005 or 2008 NEC are supposed to do better.

 

[benaround]

I'm of the same opinion as crossman is.

 

[tom baker]

The word on the street was that for the first generation AFCIs the arcing fault had to draw at least 70 amps of load to be seen. This meant that far enough down a circuit, particularly a 16 AWG cord the circuit could not produce a 70 amp arc.

I have no proof of this, it's just what has been posted before.

The new generation AFCIs required to be used starting 1/1/08 in any area under the 2005 or 2008 NEC are supposed to do better.

Thats true, the branch/ciruit feeder type would protect on a series fault to 75A, any lower and we would have nusisance tripping. The combination type detect to 5 A. I have a Cutler Hammer video from 2002 where the difficulity of detecting a series fault is discussed

 

[tom baker]

All-Thats what I thought. And we are still adding GFCI applications in the 2008 or actually removing exceptions.
One more thought.
The 1965 added an EGC to NM cable. Then about ten years later, we had to add GFCIs. Could it of been said that the EGC wasn't all that effective in shock prevention?

 

[joebell]

If I am not mistaken AFCI,s have been in the NEC since 99 and were to start to be installed in January of 2001 on bedroom receptacle circuits. It is just human nature to be skeptical of new technology but if it improves safety in the long run isn,t it worth it?

I know these devices still have some issues to be worked out but so did GFCI's back when we first started installing them. Maybe some of this "nuisance tripping" is actually a fault that needs to be corrected.


Joe

 

[480sparky]

If I am not mistaken AFCI,s have been in the NEC since 99 and were to start to be installed in January of 2001 on bedroom receptacle circuits.

Yes, and as I remember, since it was only receptacles that required protection, all the manufacturers started designing AFCI receptacles. Then the '02 got started, changing it to all outlets. So they abandonded the recep AFCI and concentrated on the AFCI breakers.

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

Does anyone have impartial data on many lives per year are saved by the use of GF devices?
I guess electrocution rates before and after widespread use of GF devices would have this info. The "before" rates are probably reliable, the "after" rates may take some massaging.
This shouldn't count people who got a shock and survived. They will be more careful and knowledgeable in the future.
A human life is worth at least $200K, depending on who you ask. I guess the 911 financial settlements put a reasonable upper bound on this value.

These electrocution rates is like having data on how many computer crashes you can expect without surge protectors, and how many can you expect after you install brand X surge protector. I've never seen this kind of thing published on surge protector packaging.
Same thing with using expensive speaker wire, from another post. Statistically rigorous tests may show or have shown that most people cannot hear the difference.
If you can hear speech but have trouble understanding it, your freqs above 1500 Hz are on the way out.
If a phone line (3.3 kHz bandwidth) sounds the same as an AM radio (8 kHz bandwidth) sounds the same as FM (15 kHz bandwidth), I don't think you'd benefit from hifi sound.

I think many people on the manufacturing side are "aggressively disinterested" in these data for any of these technologies.

Speaking of which, I e-mailed the CPSC some time ago, specifically asking what percent of house fires are likely prevented by using an AFCI. They have only said in their published literature that I could find that it is one of the major causes.
So far, no answer. Answered or not, even asking questions like these raises red flags.