Oldtimers Only - GFCI Question

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"Yes, and as I remember, since it was only receptacles that required protection, all the manufacturers started designing AFCI receptacles."


I remember talk of there being receptacle style AFCI's. I never saw one commercailly available. The problem with the receptacle style wasn't the change to all outlets being AFCI protected but had more to do with the restrictions and the wiring methods allowed for the receptacle style.

Joe
 
Lxnxjxhx said:
Does anyone have impartial data on many lives per year are saved by the use of GF devices?
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And you will never have that information.

No one ever calls and reports that their GFI tripped while they were using that old drill motor standing on a wet lawn. Also the number of houses that don't have GFI's is the same now as when they were introduced (though some may have been changed out) so you could, in theory, have the same amount of deaths that you did before.
 
I also remember the out cry in the 70's and GFCI have turned into a very good standard..I am with Bob if the AFCI would of implemented slower and become more reliable then it would be accepted better..

Yet as long as the standards use to design the AFCI are kept secret and there is no way to verify the AFCI is working properly I see some issues and concerns..the manufactures and insurance companies are pushing the AFCI yet the costs of not being able to do proper maintenance / trouble shooting and other associated costs are to unreasonable..
 
Having reviewed UL 1699 (AFCIs) several times, and having spoken to an engineer from one of the main 4 manufacturers and reviewing 1699 with him, I am convinced that the combination AFCIs do not alleviate the concerns that were brought up regarding branch/feeder AFCIs.
The problem was that branch/feeders do not trip until a 75A parallel arc occurs, which is nearly impossible on a two wire cord. The combination type is supposed trip at 5A parallel...but it doesn't. If you review UL 1699 very carefuly, you will find that all 5 ampere tests are under a series arc, not a parrallel arc. So, my question is this: If the branch/feeder wasn't working because a parrallel arc wasn't being detected until 75A...how does the combination type change anything??? The series arc current is going to be limmited by the load, so 90% of the cords in dwelling will never see that!
 
ryan_618 said:
a parrallel arc wasn't being detected until 75A...how does the combination type change anything??? The series arc current is going to be limmited by the load, so 90% of the cords in dwelling will never see that!
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This is an excellent point. Hmmm..... has someone sold us a 2008 pig in a poke?
 
Gfci/ Afci Question

Gfci/ Afci Question

I would like to weigh in on this issue. It is true that GFCI's were fought when they were introduced, but as it was pointed out earlier in this forum GFCI's were only one or two breakers. Not the 10 or 12 that woulod be required with AFCI's. I also remember the incremental increase of the gfci's from bathroom to kitchen to garage, and then outdoors. It did not jump to the entire house although there were some who thought the entire panel should be GFCI protected. I also remember when the ceiling fan boxes were first required there was not a single box manufactured at that time that would work. This AFCI business is like the tail wagging the dog. I know it may prevent fires but how safe can we afford to make a house. At some time the owner is going to have to accept some responsiblility for his actions. I will get off my soap box now.
 
joebell said:
If I am not mistaken AFCI,s have been in the NEC since 99 and were to start to be installed in January of 2001 on bedroom receptacle circuits. It is just human nature to be skeptical of new technology but if it improves safety in the long run isn,t it worth it?

I know these devices still have some issues to be worked out but so did GFCI's back when we first started installing them. Maybe some of this "nuisance tripping" is actually a fault that needs to be corrected.


Joe
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The effective date was Jan 1 2002, 1999 NEC was for bedroom receptacles and 2002 NEC changed to bedroom outlets.
What was interesting is all of a sudden we didn't know what an outlet was.
 
John Arendt said:
I am of the opinion that the current AFCI device 'protects' wiring up to the outlet, but not what is plugged into the outlet. Fact?
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I remember when AFCi's were first introduced to the public, and it was arcing from cords of plugged-in items, and not house wiring, that they were supposed to protect us from.

The reason they were used for bedrooms first was they felt that a fire in a bedroom was too close for a smoke-detector to give a sleeping person enough time to wake up and escape.

I distinctly remember power strips being mentioned, along with lamp and electronic device cords damaged by furniture, pets, etc., that the new devices were supposed to protect us from.
 
cowboyjwc said:
No one ever calls and reports that their GFI tripped while they were using that old drill motor standing on a wet lawn.
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Maybe we should start a poll here. We're certainly representative of a typical cross-section of GFCI users.
 
There is a proposal to require a sprinkler system for residential. A sprinkler system would be of value for any sort of fire ( kid with matches, people smoking in bed, candles ). If they ever get the requirement for a sprinkler system to pass it's going to make the AFCI breaker redundant. If we are going to spend a couple extra grand on safety then we should put it toward something that is known to work. A sprinkler system is more expensive but it would work.

Most of the residential fires that I have seen had nothing to do with the electrical system anyway.
 
growler said:
There is a proposal to require a sprinkler system for residential. A sprinkler system would be of value for any sort of fire ( kid with matches, people smoking in bed, candles ). If they ever get the requirement for a sprinkler system to pass it's going to make the AFCI breaker redundant. If we are going to spend a couple extra grand on safety then we should put it toward something that is known to work. A sprinkler system is more expensive but it would work.

Most of the residential fires that I have seen had nothing to do with the electrical system anyway.
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I think residential sprinklers are a great idea.

Around here, the code allows the orange plastic Corzan pipe for them in dwelling units, so the install is just cut and glue.
 
peter d said:
I think residential sprinklers are a great idea.

Around here, the code allows the orange plastic Corzan pipe for them in dwelling units, so the install is just cut and glue.
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Required in Prince Georges county, MD, since 1992.

If your jurisdiction adopts the Life Safety Code (NFPA 101) '06, sprinklers are required for single family dwellings.
 
John Arendt said:
Larry:
Are you stating that the AFCI provides protection to items plugged into outlets?? Zip cord? lamp cords? Etc??
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Yes, at least as far as the original propaganda. The fear was with plugged in items, specifically plug strips, but also including other popular items with cords: electronics, lamps, etc., not with in-wall wiring.

The concern was that smoke detectors alone did not give enough advance warning to sleeping people for fires within the bedroom, which is why the original requirement was for bedroom receptacles only.
 
If we are going to go as far as saying most arc faults are due to plug-in devices, than why doesn't UL step in? Why not go as far as having individual devices protected? AFCI protection is a huge ramp up in resi construction. I am a fan of GFCI protection now that we don't see nuisance calls, but AFCI????

I am obligated to use AFCI protection in new builds, yet if I upgrade a service in an existing dwelling, AFCI's aren't required and for good reason due to shared neutrals. Where do we draw the line???
 
peter d said:
I think residential sprinklers are a great idea.
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How about air bags around bath tubs because plenty of people slip and get injured there. Of course, there would need to be some electrical circuitry to sense the fall and deploy the bags = more work for us!!!!!!
 
Maybe a manditory continuing education class for the general public: Formation and Implementation of Common Sense and Good Judgement.

Forgive the cynicism, but i truly belive that that would save far more lives and property than any device.

BTW, GFI's were and still are a very good idea.
 
1972 GFCI's

1972 GFCI's

tom baker said:
There are several posts on AFCIs and jurisdictions not adoping the AFCI requirements of the 2008 NEC due to cost.
Was there the same outcry about GFCIs back in the early 1970s? One of the first GFCI's I purchased cost $30 in 1976.
Nusiance tripping has been cited with AFCIs, one of the most common reason for an AFCI to trip is an inadvertant neutral to ground connection, same as a GFCI.
In fact I heard the GFCIs made liars out of many electricans, they said there were no wiring errors, but then the GFCI would nusiance trip....
Thousands of lives have been saved with GFCIs, that cost less than a movie ticket.
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Hi Tom,

The early 1970's GFCI's, all breaker type, only required 15A, 120V for the outside and pool. Depending on the brand, there were stability problems in such as the 15A Zinsco's, they were notorious for tripping under certain appliance-tool loads. There were a few counter returns, but we lived with compensating breaker 'adjustments' that local inspectors allowed at the time.

Within months, the 20Amp became available and we were installing GFCI's also in bathrooms in 1974 under early local AHJ mandates. The 20 Amp GFCI breakers held and became common in lieu of the 15Amp low trip thresholds reputation even though the problem seemed to be fixed by 1973. There were no receptacle type GFCI's until early 80's if I remember.

I equate the Combination AFCI as having a similar adjustment period but on a different level due to the dual arc threshold and combined usage with the GFCI SA/BC dining requirement. Trip testing a GFCI receptacle will probably also trip the panel AFCI on the combined circuit. It is too soon to tell until all manufacturer's Combination AFCI's get field tested. I am wondering if anyone has experienced these combined problems yet? rbj
 
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I'm late posting in this thread, but I'm old enough to remember the gfi start so I qualify my 2 cents. As I remember it the loudest outcry about gfi's came from - the carpenters and general contractors who employed them. Because the were tripping constantly when saws were plugged in while it was raining outside. Most of the temporary construction outlets in those days had little protection from the rain, and the cordsets were on average unsafe nicked , and mostly used aftermarket cord ends. On construction sites the gfi breakers had to be reset constantly. It took OSHA and the code to gradually change opinions on the use of gfi's, and extension cords in good shape.
 
gndrod said:
Trip testing a GFCI receptacle will probably also trip the panel AFCI on the combined circuit.
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If you use the trip button on a GFCI receptacle it will not trip the AFCI upstream.

If you use an external GFCI tester or have a true ground fault then yes both may trip.
 
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