brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Does anyone know if it is a copy infringement to post PDF's of lets say a page of the NEC, or IEEE standards, if one credits the publication. In this or other forums?
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- Thread starter brian john
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Brian,
Maybe this will help, or this. The final link I'm giving you was a fairly high profile case, with limited repecussions on their site.
As a forum, who's objectives are much different, we are most likely okay for the most part, per fair use doctrine. What get's posted here , is kind of like maintenance. No one can no what was saved by following a lead to do the right thing, hopefully injury, life threatening risks, property damages, and financial impact, is greatly reduced by sharp minds here expressing opinions, in a legal sense.
Maybe this will help, or this. The final link I'm giving you was a fairly high profile case, with limited repecussions on their site.
As a forum, who's objectives are much different, we are most likely okay for the most part, per fair use doctrine. What get's posted here , is kind of like maintenance. No one can no what was saved by following a lead to do the right thing, hopefully injury, life threatening risks, property damages, and financial impact, is greatly reduced by sharp minds here expressing opinions, in a legal sense.
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
It's covered under an area of Copyright Law known as "Fair Use".
So long as the snip is being used for discussion and learning, you're generally safe. But if someone says "I don't have an NEC, could you please post Article 210 for me?", that would violate Fair Use.
The basic idea is that you can't reproduce the material so that someone else doesn't have to purchase it. But if you are engaging in educational or review activities, limited amounts of a copyrighted work may be reproduced for those purposes.
When in doubt, contact an attorney.
So long as the snip is being used for discussion and learning, you're generally safe. But if someone says "I don't have an NEC, could you please post Article 210 for me?", that would violate Fair Use.
The basic idea is that you can't reproduce the material so that someone else doesn't have to purchase it. But if you are engaging in educational or review activities, limited amounts of a copyrighted work may be reproduced for those purposes.
When in doubt, contact an attorney.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
tallgirl said:
The NEC is free online so what if we post the info. Just send the dude to the online site if you are worried about it. It's not like we are making money on it.
tallgirl
Senior Member
- Location
- Glendale, WI
- Occupation
- Controls Systems firmware engineer
Dennis Alwon said:
It's not about whether or not "we" make any money.
I'm the copyright holder of a fair amount of intellectual property. I have the right, under Federal Law, to decide who gets to use reproduce it. The NEC folks are in the same situation. Just as you can't rip CDes and share them with your friends over the Internet, you can't copy the entire NEC and pass it out to all the electricians you know.
On the other hand, the government, in the interest of "promoting the sciences and arts" (that's a paraphrase from the US Constitution clause which authorized copyright law), does grant people certain leniencies.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
we are not talking about copying the entire nec and passing it out.
If the nec is available online I can't imagine someone will be upset that a paragraph is quoted now and then-- but I am not a lawyer.
If the nec is available online I can't imagine someone will be upset that a paragraph is quoted now and then-- but I am not a lawyer.
I'm not a lawyer either ~ but I can imagine someone will be upset that a paragraph is quoted :Dennis Alwon said:
- http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=7005SB
Lawyers are amazing, no?
I'm sure the language in the EULA on the CD/DVD contains some similar laguage/terms.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
My main issue was more IEEE or other educational books I own, If I was to post a PDF either for educational or backing or refuting my beliefs on a particular issue..Though I probably won't give away any PDFs to show I WAS WRONG...There are plenty of folks smarter that I that can point that out.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
1. In 1897 the first National Electrical Code was published.
2. In 1911 the NFPA took over the Code as "sponsor."
3. In 1956 the NFPA put a copyright notice on their NEC book and granted permission for governing bodies to adopt and freely re-print the Code.
4. Prior to 1962 NEC Code books published by National Board of Fire Underwriters contained no copyright notice licensing provision.
5. In 1965 the NFPA became the sole producer of the NEC or received license fees for republications. (Exception governing bodies were given permission to re-print Code)
6. In 1987 the NFPA revokes the right of governing bodies to re-print the Code.
7. In February of 2001 the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that building codes, when enacted into law, cannot be copyrighted
8. June 27th the US Supreme Court refused to review the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling.
2. In 1911 the NFPA took over the Code as "sponsor."
3. In 1956 the NFPA put a copyright notice on their NEC book and granted permission for governing bodies to adopt and freely re-print the Code.
4. Prior to 1962 NEC Code books published by National Board of Fire Underwriters contained no copyright notice licensing provision.
5. In 1965 the NFPA became the sole producer of the NEC or received license fees for republications. (Exception governing bodies were given permission to re-print Code)
6. In 1987 the NFPA revokes the right of governing bodies to re-print the Code.
7. In February of 2001 the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that building codes, when enacted into law, cannot be copyrighted
8. June 27th the US Supreme Court refused to review the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I think reproductions in 'part' for the purpose of education and discussion all fall under "fair use", especially if adopted as public policy as a code or standard. Once they become such, I believe they are legally required to make it freely available to persons it would apply to. Kind of like acess to the laws that apply to you. And available at your public library.
PDF's also maintain all of the Author and Copywrite info, and are still attached to the PDF file - I think if you tried to claim it as your own you would be at least guilty of plagerism.
I would be interested in what 'our host' Mike Holt's opinion on this would be? After all he is in the buisiness of doing that kind of.... i.e. taking a small bit of code and further describing it for educational and discussion purposes - but selling a few copywrited items of his own in the process. (Specifically graphics and explainitory text, but even this forum is an extention of that to some extent.) Even he gives out a lot of that through articles etc available over the internet freely, but still reserves some of his content for sale only. A while back I found an atricle he wrote where he kind of stated that at the end... 'the rest can be found in' whatever book it was, 'not everything can be free'.
IMPO I think the NFPA wants you to buy it, and talk about it a lot, then buy the next one too. But I think a page or two they wouldn't bother, maybe even encourage it. If you re-printed/duplicated it as a whole for sale - you might have a problem.
PDF's also maintain all of the Author and Copywrite info, and are still attached to the PDF file - I think if you tried to claim it as your own you would be at least guilty of plagerism.
I would be interested in what 'our host' Mike Holt's opinion on this would be? After all he is in the buisiness of doing that kind of.... i.e. taking a small bit of code and further describing it for educational and discussion purposes - but selling a few copywrited items of his own in the process. (Specifically graphics and explainitory text, but even this forum is an extention of that to some extent.) Even he gives out a lot of that through articles etc available over the internet freely, but still reserves some of his content for sale only. A while back I found an atricle he wrote where he kind of stated that at the end... 'the rest can be found in' whatever book it was, 'not everything can be free'.
IMPO I think the NFPA wants you to buy it, and talk about it a lot, then buy the next one too. But I think a page or two they wouldn't bother, maybe even encourage it. If you re-printed/duplicated it as a whole for sale - you might have a problem.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
celtic said:
I think we are kind of like those old mechanics who hang out in the back room of the auto-shop... Not paid to be there, but enjoy the enviroment...
We're kind of hanging out in the back room of Mike Holt's retail establishment chewing the fat. (No different than we do on any of the other forums we hang out on...) I'm sure Mike Holt has a Paid and Proffessional staff that helps put out all of his material hidden off in some other room not far from here.... And a few customers at the counter....
- Location
- Massachusetts
e57 said:
I can't speak for Mr Holt and I can't say that this is his opinion.
But I can point out this forums (and most forums) rules.
Forum Rules
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The court case cited by Bryan would not provide protection from a copyright violation when citing from the National Electrical Code. It only provides protection when citing from a building code that has been adopted by a unit of government and then only when identified as the "electrical code of (unit of government)". Any citations of the "model code" (NEC) itself remain copyright violations. Also this case in the 5th District was a split decision and not reviewed by the Supreme Court. Other districts could rule differently.
VEECK v SOUTHERN BUILDING CODE
Don
VEECK v SOUTHERN BUILDING CODE
Don
I'd be willing to be dollars to doughnuts, that because of this site, a lot of code books get sold on what happens here, and makes America safer. Look at the stats...
Since January 1st, 2007 we have been visited: 4,254,572 times!
Besides, this is also the best place to get an NEC if you don't have ready access to one...
Can't imagine doing anything to kill a golden goose that just keeps on giving...
I've spent quite a bit with Mike Holt, And I would have to say that it has came back tenfold. Where else can you get an opportunity like this to get good bang for your buck? Get a chance, take one of his seminars!
Since January 1st, 2007 we have been visited: 4,254,572 times!
Besides, this is also the best place to get an NEC if you don't have ready access to one...
Can't imagine doing anything to kill a golden goose that just keeps on giving...
I've spent quite a bit with Mike Holt, And I would have to say that it has came back tenfold. Where else can you get an opportunity like this to get good bang for your buck? Get a chance, take one of his seminars!
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
"...the thinness of the protection enjoyed by this specie of
copyright is overcome by the stronger public policy of unfettered
access to enacted law, a victory expressed in the conclusion that
enacting the code into law put the expression in the public domain."
copyright is overcome by the stronger public policy of unfettered
access to enacted law, a victory expressed in the conclusion that
enacting the code into law put the expression in the public domain."
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