One more time please!

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davedottcom

davedottcom

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Is 6/3 NM ever permitted to feed an outdoor panel which will feed a 50 Amp Hot Tub in a single family dwelling?

Or does 680.25(A) make it a No-No every time?!

Dave

Editted to remove the words Self Contained. And to add that I need to read 680 over & over! :(

[ October 05, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]
 
Re: One more time please!

But is the wiring method "NM" cable or methods stated in 680.25(A)??

[ October 05, 2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
 
Re: One more time please!

To me if the panel was flush mounted again the house and the wire was fed through the back side of the panel meaning from your inside walls directly to your panel I can't see any problems there. I beleive if your wiring a new house and you know there's going to be a hot tub there, wouldn't you rough in your wiring like that? From the panel you would use conduit or sealtite or both. Ideas?
Jim
 
Re: One more time please!

I'd say it depends on if there are overcurrent devices in that outside panel. If so, then I think you must use conduit every time because its a feeder. If the outside box is just a pullout, then it may be permissible. However, some feel that 120V underwater lights in the tub would require pool light wiring methods (so no NM or UF cable there either).

Some have suggested that a circuit intended for a specific appliance with multiple overcurrent devices in series doesn't make a feeder. But I can't find any code that corroborates this concept, although its makes sense.

Some also suggest that if the tub has breakers, then the circuit feeding the tub is a feeder regardless. I disagree with that, as overcurrent devices in the appliance should not be considered for premises wiring rules.
 
Re: One more time please!

Most of the Tubs I see are either a single 50 Amp circuit or a combination of 2 circuits 1-20 & 1-30 both 240 GFCI breakers. So, yes the panels would have circuit breakers installed, not just a means of disconnect.
I just don't understand why a conduit is required according to 680.25(A).
What's to be gained?
Is the bare #10 EGC in the 6/3NM not sufficient?
According to 250.122 a #10 is fine.


Dave
 
Re: One more time please!

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.

334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
(4) Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness

Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
Click to expand...
As outlined in the code quotes above the tub is required to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor. Unless the tub and cable is above ground in a place that has a constant temperature and never rains then the NM cable can not be installed outside.
:)
 
Re: One more time please!

Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
Click to expand...
Mike, That paragraph is talking about the branch circuits not the feeders! The first 3 words in that paragraph are The Branch circuits...
They describe different wiring methods for the branch circuits and they continue on by saying Any wiring methods employed... but they are still referring to the branch circuits.

Also Mike, you must have missed my second post where I wrote the NM would not be exposed!

Editted to add one of these: :)
I know I come off sounding like a real JackA$$ here sometimes and I don't mean to, I swear! ;)

[ October 05, 2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]
 
Re: One more time please!

Exposed, in pipe or wrapped in plastic, NM cable can not be installed outside due to the temperature changes that happen from day and night. This causes condensation and therefore moisture.

680.25 Feeders.
(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
Click to expand...
Here you go the rule for feeders and the insulated equipment grounding conductor.
:)

[ October 05, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: One more time please!

For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
Click to expand...
Ok, for some reason, that just took me 5 hours to understand! :roll:
Thanks!

Alright so do me a HUGE favor and tell me this: What is the benefit in having an insulated EGC?
 
Re: One more time please!

It cost more so the electrician can make more money?

I can't give a better answer with out doing more research on the matter.
 
Re: One more time please!

Hmmm... maybe they don't want the ground fault return path to Arc to anything else along the way!??? I don't know.
So anyway, the bottom line is NM is NEVER permitted to feed an Outdoor Hot Tub, right?
Never, ever, ever?!?!
No exceptions?
:D
Dave
 
Re: One more time please!

From the wall disconnect to the tub - true, that must always be conduit. For the wires inside a dwelling structure that terminate in the wall disconnect, NM is permitted for pump and heater branch circuits but not lights or feeders.
 
Re: One more time please!

suemarkp, I'm talking about the feeders from the Main panel to the sub-panel for the Hot Tub.
 
Re: One more time please!

Where do you see that exception? I only see that for pump motors but not for feeders in 680.25. In fact, you have to use EMT/ENT/PVC/IMC/LFMC or rigid for pool/tub feeders -- can't use a cable unless its an old existing one.
 
Re: One more time please!

So if we can't use nm cable to feed the panel for the hot tub which is probolay mounted flush to the house then we can't use nm to feed the disconnect panel for the outside A/C? I think someone is wrong here. Again we must use conduit or sealtite from the tub disconnect located outside to the hot tub. Does anyone see what I'm getting at?
Jim
 
Re: One more time please!

Right here:
680.42 Outdoor Installations.

680.42(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly.Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
Click to expand...
However, it is not an exception!
 
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