One of the travelers of a 3 way was tapped for power to a receptacle

Bill Annett

Bill Annett

Senior Member
Location
Wheeling, WV
Occupation
Retired ( 2020 ) City Electrical inspector
Good Afternoon. I went to a friend’s house to trouble shoot a receptacle that was next to a light switch at the top of the basement stairs, for a basement light. I discovered that the light switch was a 3 way. The other switch was by his basement rear door. He told me he never knew it worker the light. If I flicked the switch by the basement rear door the receptacle will have power. They tapped into one of the travelers to get power to the receptacle.

I told him that it is my opinion that that is not a code compliant installation. I told the owner that If I was still the electrical inspector for the city, I could not enforce what I believe. I have to enforce what I can prove by citing NEC code articles. My main thought that it would violate the listing of the receptacle because the drawing that sometimes are on the boxes does not show the travelers wired with a tap.

Does anyone know an NEC code section that would allow this installation or a code section that would not allow this installation?

I am just planning to have the 3 ways control both, the light and the receptacle at the same time.

Thanks, Bill
 
IMO it's the same as a switched receptacle and no problem. Is there a chance the three way where this is taking place could be the feed end?
 
If there is a neutral in the switch box feeding the receptacle box, then you should have either an always hot or an end of run switched hot to use to feed the receptacle. This would be a better choice than tapping a switch traveler (I'm assuming someone made a mistake here and didn't do it this way on purpose). I don't think the NEC prohibits using a traveler, but it is kind of dumb as the receptacle will work half of the time and could be out of sync with the light being on or off. The NEC allows plenty of stupid designs.

If the neutral and hot are coming from different boxes, then that could be an issue of the conductors of a circuit not being run together.
 
roger said:
IMO it's the same as a switched receptacle and no problem. Is there a chance the three way where this is taking place could be the feed end?
Click to expand...

Roger, The 3 way common goes to the light. Power is located at a gang box by the rear door.

Thanks, Bill
 
suemarkp said:
If there is a neutral in the switch box feeding the receptacle box, then you should have either an always hot or an end of run switched hot to use to feed the receptacle. This would be a better choice than tapping a switch traveler (I'm assuming someone made a mistake here and didn't do it this way on purpose). I don't think the NEC prohibits using a traveler, but it is kind of dumb as the receptacle will work half of the time and could be out of sync with the light being on or off. The NEC allows plenty of stupid designs.

If the neutral and hot are coming from different boxes, then that could be an issue of the conductors of a circuit not being run together.
Click to expand...

suemarkp

There is a neutral. The problem is that it only works when power is supplied to one of the travelers, so it doesn't work all of the time. I was mainly wondering if the way it was wired was a code violation.

Thanks, Bill
 
jap said:
As long as a true Neutral is attached to the receptacle I don't see a violation.
Unorthodox? possibly, Code Violation? I don't think so.

Jap>
Click to expand...

jap

Thanks for the input. I totally agree that it is unorthodox. The good thing is that , since i am retired, i don't have to cite code references to friends.

Thanks, Bill
 
Bill Annett said:
jap

Thanks for the input. I totally agree that it is unorthodox. The good thing is that , since i am retired, i don't have to cite code references to friends.

Thanks, Bill
Click to expand...

I hate to break it to you Bill,,,,but,,,, even though you're retired,,, if you got friends like mine,,,, they're never going to quit calling you. :)

Jap>
 
jap said:
I hate to break it to you Bill,,,,but,,,, even though you're retired,,, if you got friends like mine,,,, they're never going to quit calling you. :)

Jap>
Click to expand...

jap.

Thanks for the comment. I was an electrical inspector for 20 years and during that time i really missed doing the work. Now that i am retired, I love doing the projects. To me it is fun and i do not consider it work. I only do it for friends and family. I also only work for food. If i got paid it would me work.

Thanks, Bill
 
The right connections to a SPDT relay can make the receptacle hot all the time other than it will briefly be interrupted every time the supply side three way switch is flipped. May have to use your own creativity on how to place said relay as there likely is not room in the box for it.
 
I wouldn't think it would be a violation but it isn't "right".

If the receptacle is located next to the 3 -way on the stairs it wouldn't be a required receptacle IMHO.

If the receptacle isn't needed I would just remove it if it is a pain to rewire.
 
Master Nate and Kwired, thanks for your responses. I really appreciate every one who responded. I am retired but i am still learning things every day from this Code Forum. Since I retired, I have or the Building inspector have told the new Electrical Inspector ( five since I left) that they should take advantage of all of the knowledge that the Mike Holt Code Forum can offer. A special thanks to Mike Holt and all of the Moderators.

Thanks, Bill
 
Bill Annett said:
Roger, The 3 way common goes to the light. Power is located at a gang box by the rear door.

Thanks, Bill
Click to expand...
Since the guy didn't know the 3-way by the door worked the light, you could do away with the 3-way set-up. Take the traveler that was tapped and tie it to the incoming hot in the box by the door.
Take out the other 3-way and put in a regular switch. Take the traveler, that is now hot, and put it on the switch. The load/common to the light will go on the load end of the switch. Neutral is apparently there, so it remains as is. The other traveler would not be used. The box by the door could be blanked off.
This way the receptacle would be hot all the time and the light can still be switched.

Another option could be a wireless switch.
Take out the 3-way by the door and put in a single pole Caseta wireless switch. The tapped traveler would tie to the hot, with a jumper to the Caseta line side. The other traveler would go on the load side of the Caseta.
At the other 3-way at the top, take out the 3-way. Tie the traveler that is tied to the load side of the Caseta to the line to the light. Keep the neutral as is. Cap off the tapped traveler
Now you can put in a Pico remote switch in place of the 3-way. No wires to the Pico, the connections are in the box, tucked in the back.

Now the receptacle is hot, and the light can be switched at both locations.
 
Little Bill said:
Since the guy didn't know the 3-way by the door worked the light, you could do away with the 3-way set-up. Take the traveler that was tapped and tie it to the incoming hot in the box by the door.
Take out the other 3-way and put in a regular switch. Take the traveler, that is now hot, and put it on the switch. The load/common to the light will go on the load end of the switch. Neutral is apparently there, so it remains as is. The other traveler would not be used. The box by the door could be blanked off.
This way the receptacle would be hot all the time and the light can still be switched.

Another option could be a wireless switch.
Take out the 3-way by the door and put in a single pole Caseta wireless switch. The tapped traveler would tie to the hot, with a jumper to the Caseta line side. The other traveler would go on the load side of the Caseta.
At the other 3-way at the top, take out the 3-way. Tie the traveler that is tied to the load side of the Caseta to the line to the light. Keep the neutral as is. Cap off the tapped traveler
Now you can put in a Pico remote switch in place of the 3-way. No wires to the Pico, the connections are in the box, tucked in the back.

Now the receptacle is hot, and the light can be switched at both locations.
Click to expand...

Little Bill.

Thanks for the options. To be honest i never thought about a wireless switch, that is a very good idea. I will give the information to my friend and they will decide which option they want to do.

Thanks, Bill
 
Little Bill said:
Since the guy didn't know the 3-way by the door worked the light, you could do away with the 3-way set-up. Take the traveler that was tapped and tie it to the incoming hot in the box by the door.
Take out the other 3-way and put in a regular switch. Take the traveler, that is now hot, and put it on the switch. The load/common to the light will go on the load end of the switch. Neutral is apparently there, so it remains as is. The other traveler would not be used. The box by the door could be blanked off.
This way the receptacle would be hot all the time and the light can still be switched.

Another option could be a wireless switch.
Take out the 3-way by the door and put in a single pole Caseta wireless switch. The tapped traveler would tie to the hot, with a jumper to the Caseta line side. The other traveler would go on the load side of the Caseta.
At the other 3-way at the top, take out the 3-way. Tie the traveler that is tied to the load side of the Caseta to the line to the light. Keep the neutral as is. Cap off the tapped traveler
Now you can put in a Pico remote switch in place of the 3-way. No wires to the Pico, the connections are in the box, tucked in the back.

Now the receptacle is hot, and the light can be switched at both locations.
Click to expand...

Little Bill.

I found this on amazon, will this work. They had a lot of options!

Lutron Diva Smart Dimmer Light Switch 3-Way Kit for Caseta Smart Lighting, w/Plate, Pico Remote, Wallmount Bracket, and Label Stickers, No Neutral Required, DVRF-PKG1D-WH​


The last wireless switch I bought was many many years ago from Radio Shack. LOL

Thanks, Bill
 
Or, if he doesn't need the switch by the basement rear door, tie the hot coming into it to the 2 travelers and blank it off.

If the light comes on when the 3way switch at the top of the stairs is in the up position you wouldn't have to change anything.

If it comes on in the down position just flip the switch over. Lol !!!

Jap>
 
jap said:
Or, if he doesn't need the switch by the basement rear door, tie the hot coming into it to the 2 travelers and blank it off.

If the light comes on when the 3way switch at the top of the stairs is in the up position you wouldn't have to change anything.

If it comes on in the down position just flip the switch over. Lol !!!

Jap>
Click to expand...

Jap.

Thanks for the information. I think that he is leaning towards leaving it as is. As long as he leaves the switch by the back door alone, he will be happy. And as you mentation, he told me he was going to flip the switch at the top of the stairs so the up is on.

Thank, Bill
 
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