Online Version Of Code

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Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Bob,

Veeck vs. SBCCII did go to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decided not to reconsider the Fifth Court decision.

On May 30, 2003 the Solicitor General of the United States Department of Justice essentially concluded that copyright law does not give a private organization the right to restrict individuals from making copies of the material incorporated by reference in the municipal codes of the two municipalities. The Solicitor General stated,

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I was aware of that Al, but I believe it will eventually get there when the NFPA gets "burned."

"Making Copies" is still different from freely distributing them and I believe that is where the line will eventually be drawn, although it is still a fairly gray line at the moment.

The public definitely has a right to free access to the text. The form of access; i.e., posting it on the Internet is still in question.

Edit Add: California also posts all of its legislated statutes ; but material adopted "by reference" is not.

[ April 22, 2005, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

It is fascinating, to me, at least, to see the symptoms of the unfolding of the Information Age.

Copyright law is definitely taking a beating, and will evolve as a direct result.

Another symptom I noted was the purchase of the New York Stock Exchange by an online trading company. . .
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

This is a copy of the Solicitor General?s amicus brief from the Department of Justice?s website.

It?s actually a fairly good summary of the case whether I agree with the conclusions or not.

It starts off:

This case concerns model codes, written and copyrighted by a private organization. The codes apply to the construction, alteration, use, occupancy, and maintenance of buildings and the electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and gas systems in them and provide criminal misdemeanor penalties for failure to comply. The private organization offers the codes to governmental entities for enactment into law. Two municipalities enacted ordinances that adopted the model codes by reference. The question presented is:
Whether copyright law gives the private organization the right to restrict individuals from making copies of the material incorporated by reference in the municipal codes of the two municipalities.
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And this is where I think the Fifth Circuit and Solicitor General demonstrated they are totally clueless:

Finally, the court stated that it was not persuaded that the loss of copyright protection would mean that SBCCI and other code-writing organizations would cease providing their services because of lost revenues. Pet. App. 26a-27a. The court stated that the ?self-interest? of professionals in the affected fields can provide ?powerful reasons stemming from industry standardization, quality control, and self-regulation to produce these model codes.? Id. at 27a (quoting 1 Paul Goldstein, Goldstein Copyright ? 2.5.2 (1998)). The court also suggested that code writers could follow the practice of compilers of statutes and judicial opinions and copyright the value they add in the form of commentary and other information.
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The NFPA generates over two-thirds of its income from sales of the NEC. The only way they could continue "...providing their services..." is through increased membership or membership fees. How many of the "...professionals in the affected fields..." advocating "free" copies do either?

[ April 22, 2005, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

While i do believe nfpa needs funds to keep going ,it might be time to hand this job to the government.Law making is funded by taxes.Would love to see just where nfpa is spending money if there are so many so called free workers (salesmen )
Some fat paychecks are going to someone.I can see a paper copy costing but to burn it to a CD or set up on web page cost very little.This is the computer age ,its time to get realistic.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
...it might be time to hand this job to the government.Law making is funded by taxes....
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No thanks, I pay enough in taxes already...and the gov't can barely function with their presnt work load.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

I have been very silent in this matter for the past few days but feel as I must speak now. As an educator I think that some one that has been laid off from work and is receiving government help should be allowed to receive a free copy of the NEC in order to get an education. As a contractor I feel that any one else who gets a copy of the NEC should be required to copy it from smoke signals that are being sent on a windy day. After all that is about all most electrical contractors know about it to start with. The moral of this story is, buy the book and be quite. :p
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim in all due respect,
I don't want big-brother making code..I'll pay the damned fee,be done with it..
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim, help me out here, you consider the NEC a tool and you want it for free, is this correct?

Roger
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Roger,yes it is a tool,as we can not wire with out following it.It is also a law,and therefore i am entitled to view it free.It is a matter of princable with me.Would you like it if you were forced to buy only Kline tools ?If this is a set of regulations then anyone should be allowed to publish it and there might be some compitition.As it stands they could ask $300 a copy and we are forced to pay it.My gripe is not that i cant afford it , but that we are being forced to buy from them ,what should be available without a profit.Any idea just how much they took in for nec 2002 ? Did they make a profit ?
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
It is also a law,and therefore i am entitled to view it free.
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JIM YOU CAN VIEW IT FOR FREE NOW! :roll:

You just are not entitled to your own free book.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim, so if your inspectors are enforcing
torque specifications on your terminations, they should supply you with a torque wrench? Hmmmm interesting concept.

Wait a dog gone minute, the for profit manufacturer should supply this tool. :roll:

Roger
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Roger,i would have the choice who i buy it from.
Bob ,if your suggesting the library ,i am suggesting an online library,It's name is file sharing.It's no differant than the library letting me read theres.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
While i do believe nfpa needs funds to keep going ,it might be time to hand this job to the government...
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The federal government can't handle it; it's one of the reasons 70E was revived.

One thing for certain though - you would have even less chance to influence it than you do now. If you don't agree with it now, you can least make a Proposal to change it. If the government took it over you'd have to start lobbying Congress.

If you were an NFPA member you could get the payroll budget and, while you can't find out what anyone but the top five are paid, you can find out that the salary ranges are comparable to industry at least in the Boston area.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

I've been holding my tongue quite a while on the issue of the Government developing the NEC or any standards. AS a dedicated employee of NFPA for 23 years, I also had a negative attitude about NFPA, I thought there were some white collar employees sitting in their ivor tower writing the NEC. Boy what a surprise I got when I went to work for them in 1980. It is the most democratic process used in developing the NEC, written by all who are involved in installations, enforcement, design, utilities, and testing laboratories just to mention a few of the experts involved. How do you like the Fed Income Tax Laws or the OSHA Regulaions??? Written by LAWYERS!! Can you imagine us electricians, inspectors, and engineers trying to interpret the CODE? We would all have to be Philadelphia lawyers.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

I believe there are two very different topics here. </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The process of individuals and organizations contributing to the collective modification of the "living code".</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The funding mechanism that underpins the "salaries, rent, utilities and publishing costs".</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the past these two items have been intermeshed. . .but I don't think it is much of a stretch to expand/alter the funding while leaving the modification part as it is.

[ April 22, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
. . .but I don't think it is much of a stretch to expand/alter the funding while leaving the modification part as it is.
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I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here Al, but once the government funds anything it begins to conrtol it.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

lets look at something.Every 3 years they change a few words or add a new article.Just how many people does it take to do this.156 weeks at 40 hours per man 6,240 hours.I might be wrong but i think there is too much coffee and doughnuts.
 
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