Opinions on the dangers of EMF

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I'm sorry that I've not been available for most of the "dust-up" in this exchange.

George,

You have posted some cogent and eloquent points, and, especially, thanks for reposting Karl's earlier comments on the subject from earlier threads.

Julie,
tallgirl said:
What I do know is that there are ways to conduct experiments and "we changed the wiring and the problem went away" is not one of them.
You are right. That's not an experiment.

Cause and effect.

Karl is one of the rare individuals who can hold a complex theoretical abstraction in mind and effect informed mechanical executions at an installer's perspective.

As you challenged everyone: I challenge you. Have you read the reports?
 
Ugh. Can you pick your favorite? :D

Hey, I read the WHO report... :D

Edit: I didn't realize the latter portion of your post was addressed to Julie, sorry. But my request remains. :)
 
I'd add: at this level, this is not entertaining reading. It is a lot like reading the NEC.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I'm sorry that I've not been available for most of the "dust-up" in this exchange.

George,

You have posted some cogent and eloquent points, and, especially, thanks for reposting Karl's earlier comments on the subject from earlier threads.

Julie,You are right. That's not an experiment.

Hey, thanks :)

Cause and effect.

Karl is one of the rare individuals who can hold a complex theoretical abstraction in mind and effect informed mechanical executions at an installer's perspective.

As you challenged everyone: I challenge you. Have you read the reports?

Yes, I have.

The conclusion of the EMF RAPID program is that there is little or no evidence for any illnesses being caused by ELF, with the exception of weak evidence supporting a slight increase in certain forms of leukemia. The animal studies found no support for that conclusion, however. Also noted in a paper from that website is the standard "advocacy" group posture demanding that a complete disproof of any causal relationship be found.

People with a general science education tend to immediately recognize this as "Proving a negative", which has a certain set of problems, not the least of which is that it is virtually impossible to prove a negative. "Prove that EMF doesn't cause headaches!", someone might request. Well, we know that flickering lights cause headaches, computer monitors which flicker can also cause headaches, fixing the problems with the wiring which create EMF also fix the monitor flickering problems. When it comes to proving a negative, I ask people old enough to have been alive at the time to prove they had nothing to do with President Kennedy being shot. Those of y'all less old might remember how conspiracy theorists insisted someone could have flown an SR-71 to and from Tehran before the 1980 presidential elections to throw the election in favor of Ronald Reagan. Same general idea -- prove it didn't happen.

There's a general principle called Occam's Razor which states, more or less, the simplest explanation tends to be the best. In the case of EMF causing "problems", many of the "problems" are caused by things which are also caused by faulty or improper wiring -- flickering computer monitors, lights,and other such things. Blaming "headaches" or other health problems on something with weak evidence in support of it requires complex explanations. Strong evidence is much easier to deal with -- most people I know have problems with flickering lights and I'm sure many of the people here get service calls to correct such things. So, what's the better explanation -- EMF interacting with some as yet unidentified mechanism in the body resulting in a small fraction of the population being affected by 5 milligauss fields, or the flickering itself, which causes a much larger portion of the population to have an adverse reaction? Me -- I'm going with the flickering as the cause and not the EMF.
 
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Why can't scholars crack wise in their reports? A few good one-liners would have spruced this dog up quite a bit. :)

Some highlights from the report:
Other biological effects
There was one biological effect which the majority (14 out of 19) of the Working Group found to have strong evidence; exposure to electric and magnetic fields affects bone repair and adaptation. The remaining 5 votes were for moderate evidence. There appears to be substantial, accumulating evidence that complex clinical exposures to PEMF have a significant effect on the primary bone healing processes. The studies of both osteotomy and spinal fusion show a robust effect. While quantification and analysis were weak in these two studies, they are prospective, randomized, double-blind trials, a rarity in the field of orthopedics. Perhaps the most convincing trial is that of the response of bone tissue during limb lengthening. While no effect on secondary bone healing was observed, there was significant inhibition of bone resorption and evidence of new bone formation.
Studies in animals in vivo indicate only limited efficacy. Magnetic therapy appears incapable of enhancing the healing of osteotomies, ingrowth of bone into a defect, bone elongation, or graft healing and, in at least one case (ingrowth), may inhibit the normal process. The results obtained in a model of endochondral ossification after exposure of whole animals suggest, however, that magnetic field therapy can be effective. Conversely, magnetic fields in animals appear to have a strong, reproducible effect on the process of appositional (surface) bone growth and on inhibition of bone resorption.
So, that explains why I look like the Elephant Man. :)
5.3 Overall evaluation
A majority of the Working Group concluded that classification of ELF EMF as possibly carcinogenic (Group 2B) is a conservative, public-health decision based on limited evidence of an increased risk for childhood leukemias with residential exposure and an increased occurrence of CLL associated with occupational exposure. For these particular cancers, the results of in vivo, in vitro, and mechanistic studies do not confirm or refute the findings of the epidemiological studies. The overall body of evidence has, however, laid a foundation for furthering our understanding of the biological effects, mechanisms, and exposure circumstances that may be related to the possible carcinogenicity and other adverse human health effects of exposure to ELF EMF.
 
It's worth noting, and the WHO report mentions this, that "possibly carcinogenic" is the weakest of three possible categories.
 
I have been reading this thread for the past few days and have refrained from contributing. As many of you may have noticed I was a big cynic of EMFs. I used to go back and forth with Karl and a funny thing happened- I really began to respect his viewpoint. I don't completely agree with everything he says. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out but I can't deny things that I have seen with my own eyes- a child conceived in a house literally under a 245Kv transmission line is born with birth defects. I believe there was also a case of leukemia that I can't recall the details of right now. Coincidence? Might very well be but now there is at least some doubt in my mind- maybe there is something to it. So, I'm not going to acknowledge or deny it but just the same I'm not going to recommend that anybody expose themselves to EMFs unnecessarily.

-Hal
 
Tallgirl,

You have raised several good points. You have also (I presume unintentionally) implied that a respected poster a liar, and made your points in ways that imply that the rest of us are kind of dumb and not thinking about things properly. This will have the effect of making us ignore your points, even when they are _very_ good. I don't believe that you've made any _explicit_ claims that anyone here is a liar, but given the imprecision of the English language, it is very easy for people to read offence even when none is intended. Given your background in IT, I am sure you've seen USNET flame wars erupt over misunderstandings of language.

Based upon the studies of EMF, even the worst possible residential exposure (homes under high tension lines and the risk of childhood leukemia) carry much less risk of harm from EMF than driving up to these homes. (Okay, I've not done the math and perhaps this is in fact not correct, but your point that we worry about EMF and not about driving is a _very_ important point.) The fact of the matter is that people get scared of low order unknown risks, and all but ignore real known risks.

This is why my response to the original poster included something along the lines of 'I'd be much more concerned about the PCBs in these transformers than with any EMF from these transformers.'

One of the other points that you have been making is similarly important, though I disagree with you on it.
tallgirl said:
In the case of EMF causing "problems", many of the "problems" are caused by things which are also caused by faulty or improper wiring -- flickering computer monitors, lights,and other such things. [...] So, what's the better explanation -- EMF interacting with some as yet unidentified mechanism in the body resulting in a small fraction of the population being affected by 5 milligauss fields, or the flickering itself, which causes a much larger portion of the population to have an adverse reaction? [...]

I believe that the point that you are making here is that a well identified mechanism is much more believable than a physically unidentified mechanism, this is an important point and I agree with it. However, if a poorly implemented electrical systems generates an EMF field which causes the computer monitor to flicker, which causes the headache, which makes people complain, and correcting the _wiring_ makes the flicker go away, then I would call the flickering monitor the mechanism by which EMF causes problems in this case. Correctly identifying the mechanism makes the issue much less spooky, and identifies multiple approaches that could be used to fix the problem (eg. an EMF resistance monitor rather than reducing the EMF), but in these cases, fixing the poor wiring layout was clearly the best approach.

In the example of the 'woman sensitive to EMF', we don't know if she was somehow _feeling_ the EMF, or if some metal object in the room was resonating at some harmonic of 60Hz, and the tone was particularly annoying to her. A 60Hz magnetic field was measured, and she was able to notice it. When other lights were turned on to reduce the field, she noticed that. There was clear cause and effect. This _was_ an experiment. It was not a properly blinded and controlled experiment, and the placebo effect was certainly in play, and the evidence would not stand up in peer review. But it was an experiment, one that would stand up to the 'make the customer happy' metric.

As a cautionary tail, I suggest looking at the history of 'clock jitter' in digital to analog converters. Back in the mid-80's to mid-90's, there was a considerable amount of snake oil being sold to the audiophile crowd for compact disk systems. Things such as sticky rings to place on the CDs, or 'green pens' to draw on the edges of the CD. These items were being sold with considerable BS. Some people were doing things such as copying CDs to CD-R media, because they found that the CD-Rs sounded better, again with lots of BS. Meanwhile, those 'in the know' were loudly proclaiming that all of this stuff was bunk, that 'bits is bits', and that none of these items could have one bit of effect on the sound coming out of the D to A converter. Finally some competent sound engineers started to do good _blinded_ ABX studies, and found that some people _could_ hear differences between two compact disks which were measurably bit for bit identical.

Once they had this evidence, then they started looking for a physically reasonable mechanism that would explain this reality: that the sound is different despite the fact that the _data_ is correct. The mechanism was in fact astoundingly simple. Proper reconstruction of the analog signal from the digital data requires several things including that the data be correct, which everyone knew wasn't the problem. But too many people made the mistake of thinking that having the data correct was _sufficient_. Additionally the _timing_ of the D/A conversion must be correct, to surprisingly high levels. What was happening was that clock jitter caused by different physical layout of different CDs was putting different jitter on the data clock. The data was exactly the same, but it was coming off the CD with different timing. The net result was that the analog output was _different_.

I strongly suspect that as we more deeply understand the issues of EMF, we will discover unexpected mechanisms which will provide the simplest explanation of what people are seeing, and once we discover these mechanisms we will discover real dangers and real ways to protect ourselves. For now, the danger is slight, the benefits of electricity great, and I for one would be happy to simply remain aware of EMF and eliminate it wherever the cost of doing so is simply having a bit of knowledge.

-Jon
 
I own and use gauss meters, mostly for power quality issues, I refuse to get involve in any inspections where health issues are a concern. Having been to court several times I try to avoid any issues that may involve litigation.

Does EMF cause health issues, well I am not sure, and when I built my house I erred on the side of an EMF safe house.

I hope all electricians are becoming aware of this issue and try to minimize EMF sources in their work. Though making a living correcting these errors, I see few electricians that keep up with the current information or for that manner follow styandard electrical practices that would minimize EMF issues.


But if there is a possibility of health issues in adults, well most of us are at risk, especially those of us that spend a lot of time in transformer vaults.

Last thing many people try and avoid thinking that something they work with or use may harm them, Asbestos, cigarettes, coal, wood....
 
Jon,

Thanks for the respectful response.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Karl or anyone else here is a liar, charletain, crook, scoundrel, idiot or anything else. I continue to be amazed at the breadth of knowledge by the overall community here, including many I've openly (and privately) disagreed with.

EMF is an emotionally charged issue and many people have lined up on both sides of the argument. My approach has been to try and dispassionately look at the research and understand the arguments being made. To some, this can come across as arrogance, which is why I encourage people to read the research. Not to "challenge" them, like "neener-neener", but to get people to look at what the research says on the subject. My reading of the research is as I've said -- no support for a general health problem, except within a certain set of cancers where a weak link has been shown.

With regards to the overall dangers of EMF, I agree with what I think you're saying that EMF needs to continue to be studied because, as another poster pointed out, there are demonstrated medical benefits to certain types of EMF. I also believe, and this will come perhaps as a shock, that we will find ways in which EMF is harmful.

What I don't believe, because the effects thus far have been difficult to measure, is that the problem is of such a magnitude that we need to approach EMF as a major health risk and run around burying transmission lines and transformers. Rather, the sorts of things which Karl's papers identify as causes of high EMF levels have their own justifications for correcting based on property and life safety issues. As the EMF-creating issues that are creating potential problems with bootleg neutrals, potentially overloaded neutrals, net current flows, etc. are resolved, we can start looking at the next level of the problem. Not necessarily because EMF is a health risk, but because EMF is known to create problems in other areas. In short, there are a lot of well-established reasons to reduce unnecessary fields.

Lastly, because some might think I'm dismissing the account of the woman and her bathroom light, I'm well aware that some people are acutely sensitive to their environment. Stray noise drives me to absolute distraction and I can well-imagine finding a mysterous "hum", even if barely perceptible, to be quite a nuisance. If things worked out for her, I say Karl did his job. But before a scientifically valid conclusion could be reached, I'd suggest a properly constructed and controlled experiment be conducted to determine if it was a sound or visual artifact, or if it was actually EMF she was reacting to. I think it would be good to know the answer, if only because I think knowing answers to questions is a good thing.
 
hmmm

hmmm

my two cents. I read that article in EC&M and I read a bunch of articles three years ago when I moved into a neighborhood with high tension power lines going right through it (or when I was thinking about doing that). The conclusions I've come to on this subject are as follows:

a) as indicated by just about all the other responses, the verdict is still out.
b) since the strength of the field is reduced with the square of the distance, you have to be right on top of the source to have a potential concern. i.e. in the case of buying a house, I wouldn't raise my kids right next to HV power lines.
c) Given that there has been such difficulty in making a connection between tumors and EMF's, common sense would dictate that you have to have steady exposure over a significant period of time to warrant concern.

All that having been said, since you're leaving the situation soon, I wouldn't sweat it. If you, on the other hand, were going to continue to be exposed to this, I'd get my hands on a gauss meter and see what I'm being exposed to. It's not terribly difficult to shield the room and thereby eliminate the concern altogether. I think any company faced with specifics about what your being exposed to, would be more than happy to make the expenditure to avoid a future law suite.

Would be interested in what more you find out on the subject.
 
My take on this (and I also live next to a high voltage distribution line) is that if there were significant risks to exposure from EMF, electrical workers would be the first to show it in epidemiological studies. Only one such study showed anything approaching an increased risk, and that was for leukemia in electrical workers in New Zealand (Google will find that for you). Even that study indicated the risk elevation was low, and within the study group the highest risk group was radio transmission workers, where the EMF was much higher than what anyone would come into contact with every day. There were other studies, but the risks imposed by the chemical exposures common in the industry could not be screened out to definitively point to EMF as a causative agent.

Bottom line, something else will probably do you more harm than EMF from power lines or sleeping next to a transformer. Relating back to the OP, I would think your chances of being decapitated by a propeller or sucked into a turbine are greater than damage from EMF off of a runway lighting transformer.
 
Good input

Good input

It's like when my dad was slowly going blind with Macular Degeneration at the age of 73; His Doctor said, I wouldn't worry about it Jack - something else will probably get you first.
 
I am not so sure there is no hazard from low level EMF, but I am also pretty sure there is no convincing evidence that they present a serious hazard.

It is like a lot of things that may or may not present a hazard. One must weigh the possible risks against the known benefits.

It is a lot like driving. There are certain hazards associated with driving, yet a modern economy would fail almost instantly if we all stopped because there was a hazard associated with it.
 
mshields said:
It's like when my dad was slowly going blind with Macular Degeneration at the age of 73; His Doctor said, I wouldn't worry about it Jack - something else will probably get you first.
They say the same thing about prostates: eventually, every man will develope prostate enlargement or other problems, but only if they live long enough.

Wonderful thought, huh?
 
Strange to say, I just read this thread, thanks to a PM. Well, what to say. I have been built up and knocked down, etc., etc. That's OK. Believe it or not, my interest is in the truth. My background is in science. The poster named Julie (Tallgirl) had many interesting things to say, but the claim of being unemotional does not show up in the character of her posts. This is a very emotional topic, and to understand why would be very helpful to each of us who fires off a strong opinion.

The thousands (literally) of studies done by scientists on some aspect of EMF and health have been conducted with all the scientific safeguards demanded by their peers. I have sat through many 5-day scientific meetings, with non-stop papers, as well as hundreds of papers posted on bulletin boards in rooms of the conference. The most interesting parts were the question periods after each paper, where scientists try to pick apart the study. Julie, you seem to imagine that these career scientists have never heard of the scientific method.

The WHO mega-study brought together a large number of epidemiological studies so that their conclusion of a doubling of childhood leukemia at 3-4 mG was as solid as one could expect from research that has not yet pinned down the mechanism by which the disease is promoted.

The character of the research results is much too indefinite at this point to warrant emotion. The research will go on. It may turn out to be a relatively mild effect, particularly in relation to bombing large numbers of people daily.

There are too many points to respond to in these posts. Just a few thoughts: yes, a plug-in analog clock by the bed has a high field, as well as standing directly above (on?) an electric stove, though the main field from a stove is the timer clock.

Yes, I too have noticed a drowsiness and lethargy when I am in an electrical room snaking flexible ammeter probes around high-amp conductors.

Politics and threats to certain industries and military interests are the main energy sources for minimizing EMF effects in the media. On the other side, there are the usual number of ambulance-chasing characters who hype the health effects to make a buck. That is true with anything that can be hyped as a threat. Fear sells. But at this point the "military/industrial complex" holds the big guns. EPRI is investing a lot of money in studies that would shift the leukemia blame to contact voltage between the fixtures of the bath-tub and the drain pipe. We will surely be discussing this in other threads, since EC&M featured the study in their Sept issue.

That's enough for now.

Karl
 
karl riley said:
The thousands (literally) of studies done by scientists on some aspect of EMF and health have been conducted with all the scientific safeguards demanded by their peers. I have sat through many 5-day scientific meetings, with non-stop papers, as well as hundreds of papers posted on bulletin boards in rooms of the conference. The most interesting parts were the question periods after each paper, where scientists try to pick apart the study. Julie, you seem to imagine that these career scientists have never heard of the scientific method.

The WHO mega-study brought together a large number of epidemiological studies so that their conclusion of a doubling of childhood leukemia at 3-4 mG was as solid as one could expect from research that has not yet pinned down the mechanism by which the disease is promoted.

I'd like to know how what you wrote in your second paragraph is consistent with the statements made in section 5 of the WHO Working Group Report. Just so we all know what I'm referring to, here it is --

5.1 Carcinogenicity in humans
The Working Group concluded that ELF EMF are possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B, Appendix B). This evaluation was supported by 19 members of the Working Group; 8 members considered that the evidence fell into Group 3 (ELF EMF are not classifiable as to their carcinogenicity to humans), 1 member considered that the evidence fell into Group 4 (ELF EMF are probably not carcinogenic to humans), 1 member abstained from the vote, and 0 members were absent and did not vote. 2 members of the Working Group who were absent for the final vote left clear instructions as to what their vote would be, and these are recorded in the counts given above.


5.3 Overall evaluation
A majority of the Working Group concluded that classification of ELF EMF as possibly carcinogenic (Group 2B) is a conservative, public-health decision based on limited evidence of an increased risk for childhood leukemias with residential exposure and an increased occurrence of CLL associated with occupational exposure. For these particular cancers, the results of in vivo, in vitro, and mechanistic studies do not confirm or refute the findings of the epidemiological studies. The overall body of evidence has, however, laid a foundation for furthering our understanding of the biological effects, mechanisms, and exposure circumstances that may be related to the possible carcinogenicity and other adverse human health effects of exposure to ELF EMF.


My reading of those two statements is far less absolute than what you wrote. As I wrote earlier, "possibly carcinogenic" is not a strong, absolute statement.
 
The reason I said the conclusion was "solid" is that the IARC of WHO is known to be very conservative and for them to reach this reluctnt characterization is very meaningful. In other words, they reaffirmed what many researchers had concluded many years ago. You have to have followed the politics over the years to understand this.

The NIH study which resulted in the NY Times and the media in general concluding that the EMF issue was disproved some years ago actually was mis-reported in the "executive summary". It showed a statistically non-significant increase of leukemia at 2 mG. What they didn't report, or hid, was that there was a significant increase at 3 and 4mG. Why? You would have to understand NIH politics and the competition for research money from the different scientific groups inside. As well as other pressures. Unfortunately the progress of science is not rational. Truth is usually overshadowed by various interests for decades before it finally makes it through. And by people who talk loudly with little real knowledge.

The most un-biased review of the research I know of was done by the California Health Services, a multi-year review. They identified lower levels as probable carcinogens. Curiously, I just went back to their website and put in EMF under the site search. There was nothing except a review of childhood brain tumors. A couple of years ago all aspects of the review I am speaking of was displayed. All traces have been removed.

But my interest is that, pending further findings, electricians at least avoid the wiring errors which produce the greatest exposure (more than power lines or appliances). These are Code violations. So there is no need to argue health effects. A second field source that impacts residences is the net current fields caused by neutral current which uses the metallic water system to return to the transformer. Though OK with Code, it can also be eliminated within Code.

So have whatever opinion you like for whatever reasons you have about the health effects. Just fix the wiring, please. That's what I am about.

Karl
 
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