Options for water pipe below exterior subpanel, retrofit

[brycenesbitt]

For outdoor panels we've got:

CEC 2025 based on NFPA70 NEC 2023
110.26(E)(2)(c) Dedicated Equipment Space.
The space equal to the width and depth of the equipment, and extending from grade to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) above the equipment, shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone.

A contractor on one of our jobs just installed these four new subpanels and is seeking options. The guys did it, the boss later the water line, shutoff valve and hose bib.

It's a retrofit situation, and the panels are where they are because of existing conductor lengths, the need to newly separate new panels from the gas per utility rules, and other considerations that make any other location pretty unworkable. The two pipes to the right are the new underground feed (the old feeds were tangled up with the gas cluster to the left).

Local gas rules don't allow the feeders be extended above the gas meters, and the interior route for the extended feeders runs into a closet if the panels are located any further right.

Options?

The best I've come up with is to move the two panels right by two inches, the claim working space is 30" wide but not centered on the panels.
The center 2 inches with the water pipe is thus not within the working space.

 

[hbiss]

A contractor on one of our jobs just installed these four new subpanels and is seeking options. The guys did it, the boss later the water line, shutoff valve and hose bib.

Got news for you, that hose bib and water line was there long before those panels were installed. Seems to me that the easiest thing to do is move the piping or just eliminate it.

-Hal

 

[brycenesbitt]

Seems to me that the easiest thing to do is move the piping or just eliminate it.
-Hal

You a plumber? Ready to take the risk of working on 50 year old galvanized pipe, and not creating a worse leak elsewhere that you are then responsible for? The pipe can't be eliminated, that's the water feed to the building.

 

[ptonsparky]

Why weren't those installed to the right of the water line? Nobody knows how to run conduit?

 

[kwired]

other than that mess of communications lines and presuming that enclosure below is associated with them, the pipe is pretty much dead center between the two center cabinets. So it is not in the working space or dedicated equipment space but there is a working space on both sides of the water piping that meets minimum working space width requirements.

Does the communications cabinet need working space? Can it be in the working space/dedicated equipment space of the electrical cabinets? Might need to dig into details on this, since NEC does cover both but my first thought is it probably wouldn't be considered non electrical equipment and can be in the space of other equipment if not extending from the surface too far. If old POTS lines are they even in use anymore?

 

[charlie b]

. . .working space is 30" wide but not centered on the panels.
The center 2 inches with the water pipe is thus not within the working spspace.

1. Working space is not required to be centered on a panel.
2. The location of pipes above or below panels is not related to "working space," bt rather "dedicated equipment space." The two rules have different requirements.
3. It looks like you do have a working space problem. That black thing (drain?) appears to be in the way of standing in front of the panels to work on them.
4. Are the four boxes really subpanels? If you open their covers, do you see branch circuit breakers?

 

[kwired]

That black thing (drain?) appears to be in the way of standing in front of the panels to work on them.

Looks to me like a carry crate like they use for milk jugs or similar and is nothing permanently fixed. Someone maybe was standing on it when working whether that is acceptable or not to do?

 

[Sberry]

50 yr old pipe doesnt scare me any more than 50 yr old wire. Its totally situational dependent. But looks like you are getting help here trying to be compliant,,,, is someone leaning on you to fix this?

 

[tom baker]

Box in the pipes with a cover extending to grade and a a top sill below the panels.

 

[Sberry]

I dont recall everyones position,,,, but is anyone going to argue 2 inches here and we might feel different as owners or as workers so,, fwiw, sometimes while i am finishing and picking I have the helper source some white and a little green food color and in about 5 minutes that would thing would be invisible.

 

[hbiss]

You a plumber? Ready to take the risk of working on 50 year old galvanized pipe, and not creating a worse leak elsewhere that you are then responsible for? The pipe can't be eliminated, that's the water feed to the building

I know you aren't either. I wasn't suggesting that you do it or hire someone to do it making you responsible. We often have to have things moved to make our installation code compliant. It should be the owner's or GC responsibility to deal with. I do know enough about plumbing to know that that water service is way past its time, and that this would be a good time to deal with it rather than later when it fails and knocks out their water.

-Hal

 

[Eddie702]

Seems funny that water line could freeze up unless in FLA or CA etc. I have never seen a hose bib valve fed backwards like that. Seems to me moving the water line makes the most sense.

 

[brycenesbitt]

OP Answers:
1a) These are definitely exterior subpanels for the 4 units. These units only have a single asymmetric MWBC 15 & 20 amps.
1b) You can see the paint shadow of the AT&T pots box the guys moved. AT&T is trying to abandon 100% of that entire network in our area. I don't care to make it neat, when it's going away.
2) The pipes are not going to freeze in this climate.
3) The owner is not proactive on replacements, not a fight I will pick.
4) There's a horizontal above ground 4" sewer line in the picture. Yes, above ground. That's my real worry from an inspection point of view.
5) @Sberry suggests painting it so nobody notices. That's the kind of creative thinking I'm looking for. That along with boxing the pipe in from @tom baker , thank you.


If this was a water line inside a stud wall, nobody would be complaining.
I'm happy to dance around the dedicated equipment space rule, not letting it create a worse project, just to follow the spirit of the rule.
Thus instead following the letter of the code:


Boxing in the pipe if needed.
Retrofit electrical work is hard enough without all these clearance constraints in a paper rule book.

 

[hbiss]

I understood what you are thinking of doing by moving the two panels on the right to create a space over the water line.

I also agree that it's totally ridiculous to have to do this. How could that pipe be in the way of anything.

-Hal