OSHA and Other Hot Work Prohibitations

[weressl]

I agree, times change.

Now I think that if you as an engineer direct someone to do it live you are on shaky ground. Hot work is not allowed by OSHA with or without PPE except for a very few reasons. Don't bother showing how you can stretch those reasons to fit what you want, if someone gets hurt those reasons will look ridiculous.

I would not ask ANYONE to do what I would not or have not done myself. I have done this now over 40 years, got shocked at some times because of my own stupidity but never even close to an arc-fault.

Bus duct or I-Lines still will reduce downtime even with shutting them down to do the actual install. :smile:

It does not justify the extra initial cost and the reduced reliability.

 

[jim dungar]

Yes Bob, that is what it says NOW.

The users just have not caught up with the fact that they are paying for something they can never legally use.

I can not find any literature by Square D condoning the installation of I-Line breakers on energized bus, but my literature only goes back to 1967. The closest I can find says "...it is possible to change branch circuit load connections without personnel exposure to line-side bussing...".

Their 1967 literature for busway does describe interlocks to prevent plug-in insertion or removal in the ON position.

Do you have anything in writing?

 

[iwire]

It does not justify the extra initial cost and the reduced reliability.

Imposable to say without setting up some job conditions.

 

[cschmid]

I can not find any literature by Square D condoning the installation of I-Line breakers on energized bus, but my literature only goes back to 1967. The closest I can find says "...it is possible to change branch circuit load connections without personnel exposure to line-side bussing...".

Their 1967 literature for busway does describe interlocks to prevent plug-in insertion or removal in the ON position.

Do you have anything in writing?

now that is an impressive archive..

 

[cschmid]

Thanks you most especially IWIRE & CSCHMID for your timely and pertinet reponses. This is a three horse race for the project and the project is a estimator and project manager NIGHTMARE. Logistically there is no parking available for construction personnel no area within the hospital to stage anything other than material for that days work, lay down area is limited and about half a mile from the work area. Couple an engineer firm with the arrogance to say your saftey policies are not valid and who apparently believes 12 stories of hospital can be reworked electrially in 365 days and you have the recipe for whoever picks the wrong multipler to put on the finished quote as having literally bought high profile exposure and the associsated liablities. I'm supposing this engineer has never seen the results of an arc flash to personnel or equipment - It only takes once to have a memory that lasts a lifetime. Personally I'm figuring a 1.30 adder on top of honest labor estimate for the dead time for both people and materials getting on site and the thumb in rear time spent waiting for approval on the scheduled shutdowns - Had they pre-purchased the equipment then they might have an outside chance for meeting schedule. I've done this for 25 years and unfortunately I see it getting worse instead of better, with the dwidling pipeline of new folks getting into trade and drawings that could be used for purposes other than electrical installation stamped with the new electrical engineering creed; "Contractor responsible for verifing all existing conditions prior to bid - No change orders shall be considered involving existing conditions." - Sadly I remember drawings you could take off the complete job by the electrical engineers notes.

Now that is an impressive twist having to handle all materials the minimum of 4 extra times and increased vehicle requirements and exspenses. plus does this include renting the lay down area and the security to limit liability..

I would never compromise the safety of the employees who make your company successful as they are why you are able to compete for this opportunity in the first place..

yet you are not hired to re-engineer this but you need to have a built in safety clause written by your lawyer to limit how much you can be punished by the hospital for proper procedures..you also need to have a material availability clause as well..with the staging area so far from the job site the opportunity for a higher level of variables exist.

 

[jsharvey]

Hot Work

Hot Work

Short Circuited,, make sure you have the EE or someone sign off on a hot work permit. If I recall correctly, there is a sample of one in the back of 70E, don't have mine handy at the moment. When the EE or some authority on the hospital have to sign off on that, it MAY make them see the error of their ways but, don't bet on it.

 

[weressl]

Imposable to say without setting up some job conditions.

I would not impose my job conditions on you, but all the scenarios we have investigated proved impossible to justify the cost.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Good Morning,
Bidding job at hospital - basically a remove the beating electrical heart of the building and replace - four 1600A bus duct risers going up 12 floors - engineers proposed method is to relocate bus plugs from one duct to another remove existing duct and replace then relocate existing loads to new duct, repeating the process to move the duct - also entails replacing switchboards and installing new pad mounts to feed - replace 5000 receptacles - rework lighting to life saftey branches all in 365 days -

But I digress, the electrical engineer has stated "Hot Work" will be required for this project - all bidder stated thier policies did not allow hot work - now EE is stating in addenda regardles of policy hot work will be performed - I need some ammo to fire back with - can anyone help?

as i see it, your problem is that with the newer hot work guidelines,
your liability in directing employees to perform this work is for all
practical purposes unlimited.

in the event of catastrophic failure, your liability is not limited just
to your employees, but to any patients occupying the hospital whose
health depends on uninterrupted electrical service.

this liability can extend to criminal as well as civil sanctions.
do you really want to be explaining this in front of a grand
jury without the luxury of having your attorney present?

25 years ago, i had to rebuild a transfer switch in a hospital hot,
as the unit had cycled when the half megawatt backup generator
was out of phase, and had welded the contacts with the inrush current,
so the switch was frozen, and the hospital was locked onto the genset.

critical patient care was on this, and could not be interrupted.

we mapped out a plan, and all went according to plan, and was
done safely, but on today's market, with today's "best practices"
and due diligence mania? it could not even be discussed, let alone
accomplished.

in my not so humble opinion, i could not afford the exposure
financially or legally that bidding this job entails.

truth be told, an EE who insists you perform hot work doesn't have
to wrap up the busbar with electra liner, and dive in himself.

and he doesn't have to go to prison for you after you direct
the person who does, and something bad happens.


randy

 

[brian john]

Hmmmm,............. and I thought that the whole idea behind bus duct is the modularoity and that you can change the configuration w/o shutting down the whole distribution system. :-?

Or did just NFPA 70E made all those things, including MCC's obsolete?:smile:

I have been on way to many busway blowups where the electrician was just plugging in the busway plug. IMO no matter what anyone says this is not an acceptable operation.

Busway is convenient for installing high current distribution, not for quick connect disconnect.