Other than UL acceptance by local AHJ

[LJSMITH1]

I was wondering if anyone has any direct experience with local AHJ's that refuse to acknowledge any other listed product besides UL in a electrical installation. I am specifically referring to products such as conduit, fittings, boxes, or cable.

The products could be listed under ETL, CSA, or some other NRTL. I understand that technically "any" NRTL listing should be accepted, but we all know that is not the case in some instances. There are quite a few people out there that are under the impression that UL is the only listing service around. Some local addendums even have UL specifed in the codebook by name.

Please give me an idea as to how common this is, and what has been done (if anything) to convince the AHJ that *any* NRTL listing should be acceptable. I am looking to gage if this would be a major hurdle in converting UL listed product to CSA, ETL, or other NRTL listing.

Thanks!

-Larry

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would ask the inspector where in the NEC does it state UL Listing. Art 110.3(B) talks of listed and labeled equipment not UL listed only.

I would first call the state inspector and see if your state only accepts UL. I doubt it but either way the state inspector can make a rule on that issue.

 

[raider1]

Take a look at 110.2.

Basically this section says that conductors and equipment shall be acceptable only if approved.

The definition of approved is "Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."

There is no requirement that an AHJ "approve" a product just because it is listed.

90.7 does basically state that equipment that is tested and listed by a NRTL provides a basis for approval, but doesn't require the approval.

Chris

 

[Dennis Alwon]

90.7 does basically state that equipment that is tested and listed by a NRTL provides a basis for approval, but doesn't require the approval.
Chris

I agree but I don't believe the individual inspectors should be allowed to make this call. As stated above I would call the state inspector who is really the AHJ.

 

[mdshunk]

... I would call the state inspector who is really the AHJ.

no he's not. He just works for them.

 

[raider1]

I agree but I don't believe the individual inspectors should be allowed to make this call.

This is a tough situation, you are correct an inspector is not the AHJ, but he does work for and act under the power of the AHJ. In most cases the inspector is the arm of the AHJ that will make the interpretations of the code as laid out in 90.4.

For example, it is the inspector that will first look at a situation and make a determination as to whether something is subject to physical damage. It is their responsibility to make a judgement call, if you disagree then the next tier of the AHJ ladder would be the chief electrical inspector or building official and so on.

This situation with approval of other NTRL's is a very tough situation. Does the state have any rules as to what NTRL's are to be accepted?

Chris

 

[LJSMITH1]

In NEC 2005 110.3, it states that "The most common form of evidence considered acceptable by authorities having jurisdiction is a listing or labeling by a third party."

The word "listed" is defined in Article 100 as "Equipment , materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with the evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluations of services, and whose listing states that the equipment, material or services either meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose."

When I read "acceptable to the AHJ", my concern is that some local AHJ's will take this as their authority to have a preference of listing entities (i.e. UL), and not approve any other listing like ETL, CSA, etc. Even when proof that the same specification was used with the other listing services, they might refuse to acknowledge that there are other NRTL's out there that can provide the same validation/verifications.

It is also important to note that while UL uses the word "listed" to define their service, other NRTL's may use "Certified" or "Qualified" to describe the same thing. I know when I was working on MIL-SPEC products, we used to perform validation testing to be maintained on the miltary QPL (Qualified Products Listing) for a particular MIL-SPEC. The DLA didn't care if we did the testing in house, or if the testing was done at a certified lab. As long as they either witnessed the testing or had the certified lab attest to it, they would use that data to put us on the QPL.

The NEC clearly cannot express an interest for any one 'product' (i.e. UL, CSA, ETL, etc.). My question is, if that is the case, how can AHJ's get away with insisting on a particular listing/certification/qualification entity? Personal preference should *not* factor into an AHJ's approval of product or installations.

Am I way off base here?

-Larry

 

[LJSMITH1]

One other thing..."Third Party" is not defined in the NEC, so I have to assume it means anyone else that can do the same thing as long as they are listed in another related listing such as NRTL list on OSHA's website.

Right?

-Larry

 

[LJSMITH1]

Chris,

Your last question "Does the state have any rules as to what NTRL's are to be accepted?" is exactly my issue. From all I can read in the NEC, this should not even be a choice issue - even at the state level. ANY third party qualified on the NRTL list to test to the applicable standard (UL, ANSI, ASTM, etc.) should be able to be recognized and approved.

Thanks,

-Larry

 

[LJSMITH1]

Chris,

Your last question "Does the state have any rules as to what NRTL's are to be accepted?" is exactly my issue. From all I can read in the NEC, this should not even be a choice issue - even at the state level. ANY third party qualified on the NRTL list to test to the applicable standard (UL, ANSI, ASTM, etc.) should be able to be recognized and approved.

Thanks,

-Larry

 

[raider1]

Chris,

Your last question "Does the state have any rules as to what NRTL's are to be accepted?" is exactly my issue. From all I can read in the NEC, this should not even be a choice issue - even at the state level. ANY third party qualified on the NRTL list to test to the applicable standard (UL, ANSI, ASTM, etc.) should be able to be recognized and approved.

Thanks,

-Larry

I agree that a NRTL's listing provides a very good basis for approval by the AHJ. But the NEC doesn't state that the AHJ must approve a listed product, just that a listed product is basis for approval.

The ultimate responsibility for approval rests with the AHJ.

For what it is worth I agree that any NRTL listing should provide enough evidence for approval by the AHJ.

Chris

 

[LJSMITH1]

Chris,

What I am trying to determine is how common is a challenge from an AHJ regarding a listed (non-UL) product used in a normal manner. I have heard stories or comments from various people in the field regarding preferences for UL versus ETL, CSA, or other NRTL's. An example would be Mr. Bender's comments on another thread on this subject. He claims that "the states of Washington, Oregon, and Wisconsin, and the City of Chicago are UL only."

What I need is a way to determine the actual validity of that statement. I cannot go on heresay or rumor.

Thanks,

-Larry

 

[coulter]

Caution - Rant ahead

I would go several steps farther. Keep in mind, my point of view is purely industrial - I don't do residential.

I don't understand why AHJs tend to require a listing or labeling other than for the products where the NEC specifically requires listing or labeling.

Except for NEC mandated and local/state laws:

If the engineer says it's fit for purpose, then it's okay. It's not the AHJ's job to design the installation.

And the AHJ says, "But I have to make sure the installation is safe." No, it's not YOUR JOB, it's OUR JOBS to make sure it's safe. Your part of that job is to make sure the installation meets the minimum spec, the NEC. If you are uncomfortable with the design, I want to hear, "Show me the calcs showing it meets minimum spec." After that, get out of the way.

In addition to making it safe, it has to do the intended job, be reliable, and life cycle cost effective. Cause if it isn't, nobody will build it. Those are part on my job.

If your inclination is to not get out of the way, then get out your stamp and insurance policy and have at the design.

Let's go a step further. Consider an installation that is completed and operational. Five years later, an EC is hired to do an addition. EC checks the calcs, load, SSC, sizes the panels, wire, other material. AHJ says, "Where's your stamped drawings?" Response: "Don't need them. We are within the original design limitations. Here's the calcs."

Here are summaries of the AHJ resopnses I have received in the past:

AHJ: "Well the code can't be written just to fit your work - it has to fit all of the other stuff we do (read residential and non-engineered commercial)"

Sure it can, that is what exceptions are for.

AHJ: "We don't have the technical expertise to know that what you are doing is right. And it costs too much to hire the expertise."

First, most of the inspectors I know have the required knowledge - at least enough to know if the engineer or EC is blowing smoke. Second, it costs way too much to install stuff that does not add to the safety, operability, reliability, cost effectiveness. Keep in mind that if it costs too much to build and doesn't do what yu want, nobody is going to build it - in which case they don't need any of us.

AHJ: "You can't pay too much for safety. You can't put a price on a human life."

This is a hard one - cause yes you can. There is a price associated with a human life. Check an insurance acturial table. The numbers are there. There is nothing we do that is risk free. There is nothing we build that is risk free. I didn't say I liked it, I just said I think that's the way it is.

I also don't think you really believe the AHJ statement. Let me give you an example:
What vehicle do you drive to work every day? What vehicle do you use for transporting the kids? Do you wear crash helmets? Does the vehicle have 3-point harnesses? Does the vehicle hafe a fuel cell or a fuel tank? Is the vehicle a light-weight unibody construction, or does it have a frame?

I think that generally,the highest risk task we do each day is to drive to work. And we accept the risk of driving a standard American K-car. We put a price on our own lives. We decide to not spend the money to get a vehicle that would reduce the risk. Why's that? How about we think the risk is low enough.

If you got this fayr thakn you for your time. I'm getting down off my soapbox now. The only thing I would ask is to please keep the flaming bullets in context.

carl

 

[LJSMITH1]

Carl,

Thanks for sharing your 'rant'. It certainly helps me understand where the AHJ's are coming from (even if I already had a good idea).

However, I need to find out whether or not AHJ's have actually red-tagged already listed and installed equipment (i.e. conduit, cable, fittings, boxes, devices, etc.) which was not UL listed, but ETL, CSA or other NRTL certified. If there are any instances, I need to look into them more to find out how it was resolved. In other words, a product was rejected because it was ETL certified instead of UL.

Thanks,

-Larry

 

[coulter]

...Thanks for sharing your 'rant'. ..

Your welcome, but your right it doesn't help with what you asked.

...However, I need to find out whether or not AHJ's have actually red-tagged already listed and installed equipment (i.e. conduit, cable, fittings, boxes, devices, etc.) which was not UL listed, but ETL, CSA or other NRTL certified. ...

Especially since I took up your thread time, I wish I could help. I don't live in any of those areas. The only suggestions I have are likely readily apparent to you.

1. I didn't see Benders post. Did you ask him where he got his information? Perhaps a PM would get an answer.

2. Call/email suppliers in the areas. They should have a pretty good idea of what is selling. I wouldn't contact the corporate office, rather get a Seattle, Portland, others cities phone books and makes some calls.

3. Again with the phone books, call/email some medium sized contractors that do job types requiring your type of material. I'm thinking medium size will let you get to a management level tht actually knows what is happening.

4. Last on the list would be the AHJs in the suspect areas. I would not trust the official policy to match what the field personnel are actually doing. I'm not saying the field personnel are wild, rather the field is doing what is expected of them by the management - and that does not necessarily match the official policy.

5. Ask outright for some PMs. Could be there are some that are not real willing to be public on some thoughts.

Like I said, these are likely all thing you already have in mind. Let us know what you find out. I'd be interested

carl

 

[petersonra]

Chris,

Your last question "Does the state have any rules as to what NTRL's are to be accepted?" is exactly my issue. From all I can read in the NEC, this should not even be a choice issue - even at the state level. ANY third party qualified on the NRTL list to test to the applicable standard (UL, ANSI, ASTM, etc.) should be able to be recognized and approved.

Thanks,

-Larry

I don't believe ANSI or ASTM was a testing organization. They are standards organizations. UL or another testing organization might well test a product to meet a specific ANSI or ASTM specification, but I don't believe either ASTM or ANSI does any product approval testing.

 

[roger]

CT might have a list of approved NRTL's something like NC does hidden somewhere.

Roger

 

[LJSMITH1]

Maybe I should be a bit more specific....

I understand that ASTM, ANSI and UL are organizations that develop standards. Of these three, only UL tests to these standards. I was merely stating that any NRTL should be able to test and certify to these standards - if they are qualified to do so. With this being said, it certainly shouldn't be up to an AHJ to decide the validity of such certifications.

As far as the lists of approved NRTL's at the local level, I just would like to validate the 'rumors' that have been spread around the country about AHJ's not acknowleging the validity of any other NRTL mark except UL.

Thanks!

-Larry

 

[jim dungar]

Isn't NRTL (Nationally Recocognized Testing Laboratory) an OHSA term? The NEC may list some agencies but it does so only as an example its purpose is not to recognize them. Individual states may recognize some testing labs but that does not make them national.

And Mr. Benders post is inaccurate. There is nothing in the WI state code that specifies UL by name except once it is when used as a reference for electric fences.

 

[SPDsk8er]

This brings up an interesting question that I thought I understood. NEC references a "third party", not UL. UL is a well respected private company, but NOT a government organization. If UL had a monopoly like that, they would stand to gain considerably. I do not understand how any AHJ, Engineer, or Manufacturer would empower UL like that. ETL, CSA, or any other NRTL approved Lab can do the exact same thing. In my experience UL has been a bit arrogant to work with. ETL has been very responsive, professional, and thorough in all of my dealings with them.

I deal with a contractor that makes some of their own fittings, modified junction boxes, and plates. They use ETL to test & certify that their products meet the UL spec. The have been used in the city of Chicago for more than 3 years now without any problems at all.

So to my knowledge, a third party does not pertain to just UL, but ANY Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (Please note that Laboratories is PLURAL here). I believe their are approx. 12 NRTLs out there, with ETL being one of the best.