Out with the old...in with the new

[controlnovice]

We are removing all of the knob and tube wiring in a 1905 home and replacing it with romex.

In the bathroom, the main light switch and one outlet are very near the shower (with shower curtain). The switch and outlet are just outside of the shower curtain. The shower curtain, when fully expanded when showering, actually touches both wall plates.

I would like to relocate these as I feel there is an obligation to the safety of the customer. However, this is a historic home, and the owner is complaining the relocation of the switch and outlet to the only good location is not convenient for the layout of the bathroom (he is right about that).

Is there an obligation PER CODE to change these because I am re-wiring them or would these locations be considered grandfathered? Regardless of location, they will have GFCIs.

 

[iwire]

In the bathroom, the main light switch and one outlet are very near the shower (with shower curtain). The switch and outlet are just outside of the shower curtain. The shower curtain, when fully expanded when showering, actually touches both wall plates.

As long as both the switch and the receptacle are outside the shower space there is no NEC reason to move them.

You could put them in that same place for new construction.

I would like to relocate these as I feel there is an obligation to the safety of the customer. However, this is a historic home, and the owner is complaining the relocation of the switch and outlet to the only good location is not convenient for the layout of the bathroom (he is right about that).

In my opinion all you ca do is recommend it, beyond that it is entirely up to the customer.

Is there an obligation PER CODE to change these because I am re-wiring them or would these locations be considered grandfathered? Regardless of location, they will have GFCIs.

There is no code reason for the switch to have GFCI protection.

Further more where I am the tripping of a GFCI is prohibited from removing all illumination of an area so if I wanted to put GFCI protection on this switch I would have to also provide lighting from another circuit.

 

[controlnovice]

So...if there are no requirements for the distance of the devices from the shower,

what part of the code prevents placing a switch or outlet IN the shower?

 

[George Stolz]

Switches: 404.4
Receptacles: 406.8(C)
Lights: 410.4(D).

 

[mike johnson]

There is no code reason for the switch to have GFCI protection.

Further more where I am the tripping of a GFCI is prohibited from removing all illumination of an area so if I wanted to put GFCI protection on this switch I would have to also provide lighting from another circuit.

In some cities it will fail not to provide gfci protection for your shower light.

The code reason will be NEC 90.4

 

[George Stolz]

In some cities it will fail not to provide gfci protection for your shower light.

The code reason will be NEC 90.4

An electrical contractor cannot violate 90.4, please try again.

 

[iwire]

In some cities it will fail not to provide gfci protection for your shower light.

The code reason will be NEC 90.4

90.4 alone does not allow an inspector or AHJ to make up rules off the cuff.

Local amendments can be made that require things beyond the NEC.

Some equipment installed in showers (fans) will sometimes have instructions that require GFCI protection and at that point the inspector could apply 110.3(B)

 

[mike johnson]

90.4 alone does not allow an inspector or AHJ to make up rules off the cuff.

Local amendments can be made that require things beyond the NEC.

Some equipment installed in showers (fans) will sometimes have instructions that require GFCI protection and at that point the inspector could apply 110.3(B)

It's hard to explain to you that in some cities when you make your statement of what an inspector is not allowed to do.

The inspector said 90.4 have a nice day. Who are you? You want to pass then gfci protect it. With or without equipment having instructions. Pretty much like my way or the highway.

Some inspectors will not even allow you to use cable stackers in a basement or ceiling 2 x 4's?

Never heard of this either i guess??

However if someone wants to argue to the inspector what he is not allowed to do then they have to take the route of going to court.

 

[mtbe]

So, back to my original question:

Is there an obligation PER CODE (Switches: 404.4, Receptacles: 406.8(C)) to change these because I am re-wiring them or would these locations be considered grandfathered?

 

[iwire]

So, back to my original question:

Is there an obligation PER CODE (Switches: 404.4, Receptacles: 406.8(C)) to change these because I am re-wiring them or would these locations be considered grandfathered?

Well we covered that and I using two names in the same thread is bit confusing.

 

[roger]

It's hard to explain to you that in some cities when you make your statement of what an inspector is not allowed to do.

It may be that way where you are but where I'm at, an inspector can not make up his/her own rules no more than police officers can make up their own rules

The inspector said 90.4 have a nice day. Who are you? You want to pass then gfci protect it. With or without equipment having instructions. Pretty much like my way or the highway.

90.4 won't work, first it is not a code rule, and second, it doesn't allow an inspector to require more than the code requires.

Some inspectors will not even allow you to use cable stackers in a basement or ceiling 2 x 4's?

And that is most likely because they don't understand what they are inspecting

Never heard of this either i guess??

Now this you got right.

However if someone wants to argue to the inspector what he is not allowed to do then they have to take the route of going to court.

Not necessarily, most inspectors I deal with are open for disussion and are not so closed minded that they can't learn.

Roger

 

[iwire]

It's hard to explain to you that in some cities when you make your statement of what an inspector is not allowed to do.

The inspector said 90.4 have a nice day. Who are you? You want to pass then gfci protect it. With or without equipment having instructions. Pretty much like my way or the highway.

Some inspectors will not even allow you to use cable stackers in a basement or ceiling 2 x 4's?

Never heard of this either i guess??

However if someone wants to argue to the inspector what he is not allowed to do then they have to take the route of going to court.

Mike you have been misinformed.

Do you also believe that the police can make up laws as they see fit?

Sure we can allow ourselves to be pushed beyond the NEC by the inspector and I have done so many times. But we can always choose to fight and if it is not a written rule the AHJ is going to have a hard time winning.

 

[lpelectric]

It's hard to explain to you that in some cities when you make your statement of what an inspector is not allowed to do.

An inspector is not allowed to make up rules or to arbitrarily enforce those rules that are law.

The inspector said 90.4 have a nice day. Who are you? You want to pass then gfci protect it. With or without equipment having instructions. Pretty much like my way or the highway.

In 99.9% of the country, the AHJ is the duly elected governmental body of legislators who then appoint an inspector to enforce the rules contained within the adopted code. The inspector is not the AHJ, although he/she may foster that aura of misperception.

Some inspectors will not even allow you to use cable stackers in a basement or ceiling 2 x 4's?

Never heard of this either i guess??

Ask them for the compliance path in the code. If they are unable to detail that restriction, then, they're out of their "authority" which is to enforce the code....not their whims or desires.

However if someone wants to argue to the inspector what he is not allowed to do then they have to take the route of going to court.

It shouldn't have to go that far. Explain to the elected body what manner their appointee is using to enforce misinterpretations. They probably don't want a rogue inspector on the loose in their community.

 

[mtbe]

As long as both the switch and the receptacle are outside the shower space there is no NEC reason to move them.

Are these locations not considered Damp or Wet per section 404.4 and 406.8? If they are considered a damp or wet location, we don't have to move them, just install boxes and covers rated for the area?

Is that correct?

The switch isn't for the shower light. It's for the bathroom light.

 

[iwire]

Are these locations not considered Damp or Wet per section 404.4 and 406.8?

Inside the tub area the are in damp locations and if subject to spray would be a wet location.

But you description says that they are outside the tub and as odd as it sounds 1" either way makes all the difference in the world to the NEC

 

[roger]

Here is an illustration showing 406.8(C)

Roger

 

[controlnovice]

Thanks everyone!!