Outdoor and wet location questions

[Myoclonic]

Depends on the listing. If it's CMX as most direct burial UTP is you can't run it within buildings (except residential) unless it's in conduit. Although not specifically addressed by the Code, I see no reason why you can't treat a direct burial CMX cable entering a building from the outside the same as unlisted OSP cable which under the same circumstances can be run a maximum of 50 feet within a building without conduit.

If it's outside a building nobody cares what you use. That's a design issue.

The reason for the restrictions on type CMX cable is because the compounds used (the jell and the jacket) are flammable or will emit toxic fumes when burned. Since the NEC is only about the protection of life and property it has an interest in how this cable is used inside of buildings. Outside, there is no way any kind of data cable can endanger life and property so the NEC doesn't cover those installations.

-Hal

Spoke with a local today who did his own installation in his greenhouse. Had to redo it 3 times before they passed inspections! :slaphead::lol: "First they wouldn't let me use the gray stuff (CM or unlisted I assume), then they wouldn't let me use the brown stuff (likely CMP?), then they told me I had to put the black stuff (CMX?) in conduit!"

Haha, exactly what I'm trying to avoid (and I won't argue with you about the reputation of some LV installers). I was familiar with the 50' limitation on unlisted OSP, and the inspector couldn't give me a straight answer on CMX over 50'.

Hmm, come up at the exterior of the greenhouse, run the cable on the outside and punch through the poly to a camera far less than 50' away?

 

[hbiss]

If this were an office or other installation within a building then I would follow the letter of the local requirements. But what you are doing looks to be 99% outdoors and in something I don't even know qualifies as a building. Other than the wiring in the main building, I don't see any of this falling under the NEC.

I hate to give this kind of advice, but sometimes you need to know when to keep your mouth shut.

-Hal

 

[Smart $]

... Other than the wiring in the main building, I don't see any of this falling under the NEC.

The NEC applies to the entire premises, not just within buildings

 

[hbiss]

How do you figure that? This is data wiring remember.

-Hal

 

[Smart $]

How do you figure that? This is data wiring remember.

-Hal

This...

90.2 Scope.

(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical
conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and
communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and
optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures,
mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating
buildings
(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect
to the supply of electricity
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office
buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and
recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a
generating plant, substation, or control center.

(B) Not Covered. ...(nothing appears to apply)

 

[petersonra]

Communications Circuit. The circuit that extends voice,
audio, video, data, interactive services, telegraph (except
radio), outside wiring for fire alarm and burglar alarm from
the communications utility to the customer’s communications
equipment up to and including terminal equipment
such as a telephone, fax machine, or answering machine.

so what does this abomination mean?

it appears to me to mean that article 800 only applies to wiring coming from the utility to a customer's equipment. I don't see how it would apply to cameras that are wired between two pieces of customer owned equipment such as a camera and the DVR it is connected to.

 

[hbiss]

This...

90.2 Scope.

(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electrical
conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and
communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and
optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures,
mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating
buildings
(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect
to the supply of electricity
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office
buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and
recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a
generating plant, substation, or control center.

(B) Not Covered. ...(nothing appears to apply)

Agreed. But show me where CAT6 ty-rapped to a chain link fence or the burial depth of CAT6 in sch40 conduit is addressed.

Yes, it covers such systems but only as addressed in 725 and 800.

-Hal

 

[Smart $]

Agreed. But show me where CAT6 ty-rapped to a chain link fence or the burial depth of CAT6 in sch40 conduit is addressed.

Yes, it covers such systems but only as addressed in 725 and 800.

I'm not saying it covers those particular aspects of the installation. I'm just saying the installation must be compliant everywhere on the premises, not just in buildings.

 

[Myoclonic]

Agreed. But show me where CAT6 ty-rapped to a chain link fence or the burial depth of CAT6 in sch40 conduit is addressed.

Yes, it covers such systems but only as addressed in 725 and 800.

-Hal

Haha, yes, my ignorance is permanently archived on the internet for all to see! :lol: At least it's maybe slightly improved now, thanks to you kind sir, and these other fine gentlemen. Seeing the experts trying to figure this stuff out at least makes me feel a little better about my own confusion.

Initially I was pretty confident this would be an easy job, a rural greenhouse with 12 drops out in the middle of nowhere compared to 3000+ drop multi-story office buildings and campuses within city limits. But those were also long ago under different circumstances and requirements, we often (but not always) subbed out the conduit and/or fiber or bid on just the wiring if separate, so conduit is not my strongest point, even less outdoors. Does design advice fall under the category of 'technical questions'? Is it honestly this difficult or am I just over-thinking it? Or maybe in over my head? :?

No matter what, thanks all for taking the time to read and post in this thread.

-Myo

 

[hbiss]

I'm not saying it covers those particular aspects of the installation. I'm just saying the installation must be compliant everywhere on the premises, not just in buildings.

Taking a half-moon flower bed edger and making a slit in the turf 3" deep then stomping the cable into it would be compliant. That's what the cable guys do. :thumbsdown:

-Hal

 

[Smart $]

Taking a half-moon flower bed edger and making a slit in the turf 3" deep then stomping the cable into it would be compliant. That's what the cable guys do. :thumbsdown:

I know. I've done it plenty of times myself with satellite TV cable.

However, here's some food for thought: every time you run underground, you end up having a riser at each end... so the type of cable you use must meet riser requirements.

 

[hbiss]

You're not confusing riser as in CMR that you use for vertical runs between floors with cable suitable to be run from outside into the building? If your underground or aerial cable cannot be run within the building you must transition to something that can at the point of entrance or within 50 feet if allowed. Inside the building the NEC applies.

-Hal

 

[Smart $]

You're not confusing riser as in CMR that you use for vertical runs between floors with cable suitable to be run from outside into the building? If your underground or aerial cable cannot be run within the building you must transition to something that can at the point of entrance or within 50 feet if allowed. Inside the building the NEC applies.

See, you may already have an interpretation problem. And I'm not saying you are wrong... just that his AHJ may see it differently than you are used to.

AFAIK, a riser simply penetrates a floor. Between floors is an okay distinction, but the ground floor is a floor. From underground to above ground is penetrating a floor.

800.48 Unlisted Cables Entering Buildings. Unlisted
outside plant communications cables shall be permitted to
be installed in building spaces other than risers, ducts used
for environmental air, plenums used for environmental air,
and other spaces used for environmental air, where the
length of the cable within the building, measured from its
point of entrance, does not exceed 15 m (50 ft) and the
cable enters the building from the outside and is terminated
in an enclosure or on a listed primary protector.

 

[Myoclonic]

Haha you guys are cracking me up, thanks for the lols.

Talked with a few more locals and looked at a couple similar installs, just gonna use a weatherhead to come up in the greenhouse, direct burial CMX > 50' is fine as long as the termination is waterproof (it's a bare steel frame with dirt floor what can burn lol, cams will have a twist lock cable-grip like connection), scratch in the cable along the fenceline, maybe some cheapo conduit up the fence for physical damage protection, etc.

Thanks again all, my understanding of the NEC is at least slightly improved, have some confidence back. Maybe this thread will help someone else in the future, I'll keep tabs on it and update.

-MyoclonicJerk

 

[Strathead]

Pull a permit and have an inspection for what? As was said, none of this falls under the NEC.

What fire rated pass through?

-Hal

I does fall under the NEC. Specifically article 100,200, and 300 modified by 700 and 800.

 

[Strathead]

AFAIK, a riser simply penetrates a floor. Between floors is an okay distinction, but the ground floor is a floor. From underground to above ground is penetrating a floor.

I don't agree with you there. The NEC requires riser cable when the cable is penetrating "more than one floor" not merely coming out of the slab.

 

[Strathead]

I does fall under the NEC. Specifically article 100,200, and 300 modified by 700 and 800.

I misspoke and was too late to edit. It should say, article 725 and 800 and article 300 when referenced by those articles.

 

[Strathead]

Haha you guys are cracking me up, thanks for the lols.

Talked with a few more locals and looked at a couple similar installs, just gonna use a weatherhead to come up in the greenhouse, direct burial CMX > 50' is fine as long as the termination is waterproof (it's a bare steel frame with dirt floor what can burn lol, cams will have a twist lock cable-grip like connection), scratch in the cable along the fenceline, maybe some cheapo conduit up the fence for physical damage protection, etc.

Thanks again all, my understanding of the NEC is at least slightly improved, have some confidence back. Maybe this thread will help someone else in the future, I'll keep tabs on it and update.

-MyoclonicJerk

It is relatively simple and we are making it harder to understand in our way. Basically if you are not installing a complete conduit system to pull wiring in, which you have indicated you aren't, the it is not actually conduit you are installing, it is a chase for cables. As such, the inspector is wrong about arbitrarily saying you have to bury it per the table in chapter three. The depth you have to bury it at is bound by article 725 or 800. Which doesn't require it at any specific depth, just be careful when talking to the inspector and say you are installing cable chases. So once you have that out of the way, then you are subject to rules you are likely familiar with. Make sure your cable is rated for direct burial and sunlight resistant, your equipment is listed for outdoor use, and that your termination in equipment are per the manufacturers requirements. The rest is merely standard things you indicated you already know like proper strapping, slack etc. Inspection is more of a district preference. Since it is covered under NEC articles they have every right to require a permit and an inspection. they don't have to though and in many places they don't It has become pretty typical in the 2000's though to require an inspection.

 

[JFletcher]

First off, you are not understanding the NEC and how it is set up. It has really nothing to say about outdoor LV wiring such as what you want to do. So do what you want.

-Hal

Not quite true. Cable type, grounding, building penetrations, and if run aerial/messenger supported wire, there are some sections that come into play. While not applicable here, there are a fair number of codes re: LV wiring of 680 installs. tho I dont have a 2017 NEC and likely wont for a while, if myoclonic has to install by that, there are some new sections in chapter 8.

That said, I would not pull a permit for a job of this type, nor would I take it as I'm not familiar enough with OSP wiring to want to design such a system. Best bet for the uninitiated is a package designed for outside use. If the OP wants to ramp up the difficulty buy using parts not designed together, more power to him. I'd be more concerned about lightning strikes and damage/sabotage than building codes for this particular project.

If I may ask a stupid question, what is the point in free running catx cable for a security system? Anywhere that cable is accessible means its also easily cut, even if by a weed eater instead of intentionally.

 

[Smart $]

I don't agree with you there. The NEC requires riser cable when the cable is penetrating "more than one floor" not merely coming out of the slab.

You best look again. For example...

(D) Risers — Cables and Raceways in Vertical Runs.
The following cables, raceways, and cable routing assemblies
shall be permitted in vertical runs penetrating one or
more floors and in vertical runs in a shaft:

I understand riser is not defined and you may think coming out of the ground is not a riser, but take a look at 300.5(J) Informational Note (quoted below). I realize this is not about communications. It does, however, reinforce my position that coming out of the ground is a riser in the most basic conventional sense.

(J) Earth Movement. Where direct-buried conductors,
raceways, or cables are subject to movement by settlement
or frost, direct-buried conductors, raceways, or cables shall
be arranged so as to prevent damage to the enclosed conductors
or to equipment connected to the raceways.

Informational Note: This section recognizes “S” loops in
underground direct burial to raceway transitions, expansion
fittings in raceway risers to fixed equipment, and, generally,
the provision of flexible connections to equipment subject
to settlement or frost heaves.