Everyone, thank you for the responses and input. After additional consultations and discussions with the local inspectors (Austin, Tx), it was decided that the outdoor kitchen is ?outdoors? and follows those guidelines of the NEC code. They all do agree though that the NEC code is a little vague on this and I would have to agree with kwired??..the NEC needs to define this better. So, for now, the answer is no arc-fault required. Joe
Outdoor Kitchens - require arc-fault?
- Thread starter joecalvin
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Then it's a kitchen. Just because it's outdoors is a moot point. The NEC doesn't say squat about outdoors is exempt.
Per the NEC:
Is this not an area? I see a sink in those images. There's permanent provisions for food preparation (countertops) and cooking (grills, ovens....)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I do not disagree with that, but have the feeling it was not the intention to require an outdoor kitchen to meet same requirements as an indoor kitchen. Like I said earlier most any outdoor porch, patio, etc. could possibly be called a living room or dining room or some other space that requires both AFCI protection as well as needing to comply with 210.52 receptacle spacing.
Once upon a time, the CMPs said, "There's no need to define a kitchen since everyone knows what they are." Yes, they actually said that. Well, maybe not exactly those words, but I know I'm paraphrasing them.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
In the last few years many new farm shops could fit the definition of Dwelling unit. Just because they do does not mean they are.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
So what that it's a kitchen. It is not part of the dwelling unit.
It says " branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed
in dwelling unit ............." Then it says what locations.
So if I had an 'out house' (shitter) with a sink I need to treat it as a bathroom?
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
"Dwelling unit" used in 210.12(A), that I have highlighted in red in the quote of your post, is not the object of the action of the work "devices". "Dwelling unit" is the modifier. What kind of kitchens? Dwelling unit kitchens. Where are the devices? Inside kitchens of dwelling units.
Yes, if 210.52(G)(2) is invoked, that is, you bring power to your 'out house'.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
What about smoke detectors? Are you going to require lighting?
If I have other counter tops do I need outlets there? What if I have a half wall near by?:slaphead:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Opens a big can of worms with other code sections if you call it anything but outdoor area doesn't it?
Does carport = garage, 2014 has some new requirements for garages or how about just a fancy parking space with no cover is that possibly a garage?
Years ago before air conditioning was as common as it is now, in some places the kitchen often was outdoors when it came to cooking on hot summer days.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Well, are you bringing power to this 'out house', or not? The answer to this question is the answer to your question. In my opinion.
:huh:?
Well, is sure ain't part of the gas station down the street.
And kitchens are included, aren't they?
If you have an Moon Room with a sink, you're doing better than I am! :lol:
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Hey, look!
A laundry room:
Solar and wind dryer do not require a 30A circuit.
The outdoor kitchen does not require the AFCI circuits. Even though the definition does not distinguish outdoor or indoor.
If it does then you will need to AFCI the lights as well. I wonder if the 24", 48" receptacle placement come into play? Does the energy code kick in for the lighting??
If it does then you will need to AFCI the lights as well. I wonder if the 24", 48" receptacle placement come into play? Does the energy code kick in for the lighting??
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
How can you tell from the NEC?
I think the test of whether the lighting in the outdoor kitchen you are thinking of requires AFCI, or not, it whether it is installed. If one installs outdoor kitchen lighting powered by the Premises Wiring (System) of the Dwelling, then AFCI protection is required.
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
So if there's a barn on the property fed from the house you need to AFCI all the barn lighting circuits but you don't if you get a separate service for the barn or if the service disconnects are located outside of the dwelling?
This all seems pretty silly to me. An outdoor cooking area obviously isn't the same as an indoor kitchen. If it were, you wouldn't be allowed to have a gas or charcoal grill there and either of those is a much greater fire hazard than an electrical circuit. If the code stated that any circuit that originated within the dwelling unit required AFCI protection, then there'd be an argument for this. Otherwise, I don't see it. GFCI yes, AFCI absolutely not.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
That was similar to ours when I was a kid. Hot water with my mothers bright red dress combined with dad's white shorts & t shirts = 2 young boys laughing hysterically.480spa4 said:Hey, look!
A laundry room:
Ground fault protection was standing on the board.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
No. I don't see barns listed in 210.12(A), but I do see kitchen.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If we want to call this a kitchen, 210.70(A)(1) requires at least one lighting outlet doesn't it? Lighting is not an option it is a requirement if it is a kitchen or any other habitable room.
In general no, in some of the examples we have seen, I'm not so certain.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The Article 100 Definition of Kitchen doesn't say that it is a habitable room, in order to be a Kitchen.
If a "sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking" are present, then, by definition there is a Kitchen. With the use of "An area", in the definition, walls aren't even needed.
So, the closest 210.70(A) would get for a freestanding outdoor kitchen at a single family dwelling would be 210.70(A)(2)(b), and that might be a ways away from the freestanding outdoor kitchen area.
So, the lighting outlets in the kitchen area are not "required" per se, rather are added by design, if at all.
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