I'm not familiar with pool wiring installations.I am running a 20 amp dedicated circuit for a pump motor for an outdoor pool.The 20 amp twist lock single recetacle will be 5 feet away from the edge of the pool in a weatherproof plastic 2 gang box with a switch controlling the recetacle.I plan on running 3/4 inch schedule 40 pvc from the house.The conduit will contain 3 no.12 insulated thhn conductors(blk/wht/green), protected by a gfci breaker. My question is, can I use direct burial cable (this would make the digging much easier) instead of pvc ?.In reading the code it states that I can use MC cable that is suitable for direct burial(never heard of this cable). Any input from pool wiring specialist. Thanks in advance.
Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
- Thread starter 1madison
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
680.21(A)(1) Lists the permitted wiring methods for pool associated motors. UF cable isn't one of them. Type MC may be used for the portion of the circuit that is within the building from which the supply is located, unless it is in a one family dwelling. Than any of the wiring methods in Chapter 3 of the NEC shall be permitted.
680.21(A)(1) Lists the permitted wiring methods for pool associated motors. UF cable isn't one of them. Type MC may be used for the portion of the circuit that is within the building from which the supply is located, unless it is in a one family dwelling. Than any of the wiring methods in Chapter 3 of the NEC shall be permitted.
poolsparky
Member
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
madison, i agree with infinity. UF cable is fine for a single family dwelling. i'm curious though, why is a direct burial cable trench (24 inches, column 1) easier to dig than a pvc trench (12 or 18 inches, column 3 or 4)? table 300.5 NEC 2002. FYI, 1/2 inch schedule 40 is plenty roomy enough for 3 no. 12, and underground pipe is a wet location. don't worry, your thhn will also have thwn stamped on it. also, these pool runs can get pretty long, and HOT! consider 240v and/or no. 10 wire if you're going through an attic and across the lawn. in other words, watch your amperage, derating and voltage drop, IMHO.
madison, i agree with infinity. UF cable is fine for a single family dwelling. i'm curious though, why is a direct burial cable trench (24 inches, column 1) easier to dig than a pvc trench (12 or 18 inches, column 3 or 4)? table 300.5 NEC 2002. FYI, 1/2 inch schedule 40 is plenty roomy enough for 3 no. 12, and underground pipe is a wet location. don't worry, your thhn will also have thwn stamped on it. also, these pool runs can get pretty long, and HOT! consider 240v and/or no. 10 wire if you're going through an attic and across the lawn. in other words, watch your amperage, derating and voltage drop, IMHO.
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
There is a type MC cable that is jacketed for wet locations and direct burial. I forget whether Alflex or Pirelli makes it.
A PVC conduit is cheap insurance and protects you against the Tree Root Circuit Breaker Method. Sure, I can remove the rocks from the bottom of a trench and backfill and then level the bottom of the trench, but it is a LOT easier to stick in a PVC conduit. If the soil is substatially free of rocks ( only a few per cubic yard ) then I will go direct burial for a 60 amp feeder or a postlight circuit, but for a service or a swimming pool I would insist on using a conduit.
There is a type MC cable that is jacketed for wet locations and direct burial. I forget whether Alflex or Pirelli makes it.
A PVC conduit is cheap insurance and protects you against the Tree Root Circuit Breaker Method. Sure, I can remove the rocks from the bottom of a trench and backfill and then level the bottom of the trench, but it is a LOT easier to stick in a PVC conduit. If the soil is substatially free of rocks ( only a few per cubic yard ) then I will go direct burial for a 60 amp feeder or a postlight circuit, but for a service or a swimming pool I would insist on using a conduit.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
Guys,
Infinity had it right here:
Bill
Guys,
Infinity had it right here:
If someone disagrees please provide a code section.
Bill
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
I agree with you Bill UF is not allowed for the circuit feeding a pool pump.
I agree with you Bill UF is not allowed for the circuit feeding a pool pump.
You are allowed by 680.21(A)(4) to use NM inside a one family dwelling to feed a pool pump but I see no allowance for UF outside.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
Iwire,
I agree with you. The point you've made is exactly what I was trying to say. The portion of the wiring within a one family dwelling can be NM cable. If I remember correctly a few code cycles ago this was not permitted because the code explicitly required the grounding conductor within the cable to be insulated.
[ April 16, 2005, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]
Iwire,
I agree with you. The point you've made is exactly what I was trying to say. The portion of the wiring within a one family dwelling can be NM cable. If I remember correctly a few code cycles ago this was not permitted because the code explicitly required the grounding conductor within the cable to be insulated.
[ April 16, 2005, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
Infinity I think you, Bill and myself are all on the same page.
I think the confusion comes from pool sparky's post where he(?) said;
Infinity I think you, Bill and myself are all on the same page.
I think the confusion comes from pool sparky's post where he(?) said;
IMO that is incorrect.
bill addiss
Senior Member
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
infinity,
I think you said it clear enough. Some of the other posts are unclear whether they were disagreeing, or just changing the subject. I just wanted to clarify fpr the original poster.
Bill
infinity,
I think you said it clear enough. Some of the other posts are unclear whether they were disagreeing, or just changing the subject. I just wanted to clarify fpr the original poster.
Bill
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
Beldon makes a PVC jacketed MC cable listed for direct burial.
In Washington State we can use an cable method for the supply to a pool, such as UF.
Beldon makes a PVC jacketed MC cable listed for direct burial.
In Washington State we can use an cable method for the supply to a pool, such as UF.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Outdoor Pool Pump Wiring
In the 1999 cycle the NEC required the equipment grounding conductor to be 12 AWG and insulated,
680.25 (c) Motors. Pool-associated motors shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-122 but not smaller than No. 12. It shall be an insulated copper conductor
It went on to say that in a dwelling unit PVC or EMT was required.
In 2002 there was changes made to 680 where .21 came into being,
680.21 (A) (1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain a copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
And for a dwelling unit:
Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.
Edited to add?-- the word insulated is missing in (A) (1) leads some to believe that a UF cable would be acceptable
Now we have the 2005 which says,
680.21 (A) (1) Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
And for a dwelling unit,
In the interior of one-family dwellings,????.. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.
I agree with the NM cable on the inside of a dwelling unit but, the underground EGC got to have insulation before and after the 2002 cycle. This is adding support for those who debate the insulated EGC for 2002. personally I like the insulated EGC myself
[ April 16, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
In the 1999 cycle the NEC required the equipment grounding conductor to be 12 AWG and insulated,
680.25 (c) Motors. Pool-associated motors shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-122 but not smaller than No. 12. It shall be an insulated copper conductor
It went on to say that in a dwelling unit PVC or EMT was required.
In 2002 there was changes made to 680 where .21 came into being,
680.21 (A) (1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain a copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
And for a dwelling unit:
Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.
Edited to add?-- the word insulated is missing in (A) (1) leads some to believe that a UF cable would be acceptable
Now we have the 2005 which says,
680.21 (A) (1) Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.
And for a dwelling unit,
In the interior of one-family dwellings,????.. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.
I agree with the NM cable on the inside of a dwelling unit but, the underground EGC got to have insulation before and after the 2002 cycle. This is adding support for those who debate the insulated EGC for 2002. personally I like the insulated EGC myself
[ April 16, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Status