livewirek1
New member
can a dining room receptacle circut be used to supply a weatherproof receptacle in a single family dwelling?
outdoor receptacle
- Thread starter livewirek1
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: outdoor receptacle
No, the small appliance circuit used to serve the dining room receptacle outlets shall serve no other outlets except as permitted in section 210.52(B)(1).
An outdoor receptacle would not qualify as one of the listed areas.
No, the small appliance circuit used to serve the dining room receptacle outlets shall serve no other outlets except as permitted in section 210.52(B)(1).
An outdoor receptacle would not qualify as one of the listed areas.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: outdoor receptacle
You list yourself as an electrician? signed on today and posted a question like that?How long in the trade?
You list yourself as an electrician? signed on today and posted a question like that?How long in the trade?
Re: outdoor receptacle
Is this dinning room outlet on the small appliance circuit?
If it is on some other general purpose circuit then I would say yes. If it is on the small appliance circuit then no for reasons stated above.
a.wayne3@verizon.net,
{edit}
I'm sorry, I was out of line for posting what previously filled this space. every place I have worked talking trash is considered part of the trades. It is always taken lightly and never personal. I do, however, understand why on a forum it must be prohibited.
{/edit}
[ August 30, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Local ]
Is this dinning room outlet on the small appliance circuit?
If it is on some other general purpose circuit then I would say yes. If it is on the small appliance circuit then no for reasons stated above.
a.wayne3@verizon.net,
{edit}
I'm sorry, I was out of line for posting what previously filled this space. every place I have worked talking trash is considered part of the trades. It is always taken lightly and never personal. I do, however, understand why on a forum it must be prohibited.
{/edit}
[ August 30, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Local ]
speedypetey
Senior Member
- Location
- Hudson Valley, NY
Re: outdoor receptacle
All dining room receptacles are small appliance branch circuits.
The answer is no.
All dining room receptacles are small appliance branch circuits.
The answer is no.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: outdoor receptacle
there was a time back in the 80's that this was ok and often done.But for whatever reason is a no go now under 2002
there was a time back in the 80's that this was ok and often done.But for whatever reason is a no go now under 2002
Re: outdoor receptacle
Not every outlet in a dining room is or must be on the small appliance branch circuit. It is permissible to put dinning room receptacles on the small appliance branch circuit but it is not required. Dinning room outlets may be fed by a general purpose circuit.
Not every outlet in a dining room is or must be on the small appliance branch circuit. It is permissible to put dinning room receptacles on the small appliance branch circuit but it is not required. Dinning room outlets may be fed by a general purpose circuit.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: outdoor receptacle
Local,
Even if you feed the dining room with it's own dedicated branch circut(as my company does), you still could not feed an outdoor w/p receptacle off of it.
See Bryan's post above.
Local,
Even if you feed the dining room with it's own dedicated branch circut(as my company does), you still could not feed an outdoor w/p receptacle off of it.
See Bryan's post above.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: outdoor receptacle
The only way a recep could be on a GP branch circuit is in the case of a half hot. That circuit could be brought outside.
The only way a recep could be on a GP branch circuit is in the case of a half hot. That circuit could be brought outside.
buck33k
Senior Member
- Location
- Washington state and North Carolina
Re: outdoor receptacle
livewirek1
From my own experience, just when we think we understand a code section, some exception or obscure reference will alter our opinion. Your post had me refering to 210.52(B), but as the other guys said, (edited)- the answer seems to be no.
Buck
[ September 02, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: buck33k ]
livewirek1
From my own experience, just when we think we understand a code section, some exception or obscure reference will alter our opinion. Your post had me refering to 210.52(B), but as the other guys said, (edited)- the answer seems to be no.
Buck
[ September 02, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: buck33k ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: outdoor receptacle
</font>
I disagree. Here is my view:
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you are standing in a dining room, and see a receptacle on a wall, then it is there specifically because 210.52(A) required it to be installed.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">210.52(B) says that the 2 or more SA circuits shall supply everything in 210.52(A).</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Therefore, the dining room receptacle is on the SA circuit.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">QED</font>
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: outdoor receptacle
These remarks are close to being personal in nature, and unfriendly in character. Please don?t go there. Let?s write all our questions and comments in a professional tone.
Re: outdoor receptacle
Ok, I've gone back over the pertinent sections and it looks like I'm wrong. I was definitely wrong by using the word permissible it is required that the SA circuit supply the dinning room. It has been some time since I've done residential and it looks like I need to study some more.
That being said, I do not see where the code prohibits circuits other then the required SA circuits to feed an outlet in the dinning area. However, after consideration I can understand why an inspector may not allow this, as a home owner may plug in devices we consider small appliances into these circuits because they are there. However just because an outlet is in a location does not mean it all the sudden becomes something it is not. Do you disagree with that Charlie B? Nothing personal but I do not think it becomes something it isn't just because of its existence.
We must keep in mind the code is just a minimum and if you go above and beyond you are still ok. Years ago we were allowed to provide GP circuits and outside outlets in areas that also must have a SA circuit or some other requirement. Maybe times have changed and maybe I'm out of the loop on new residential.I do find this a much more interesting thought then AFCI debates as I am not a fan, in the least, of AFCI's.
Ok, I've gone back over the pertinent sections and it looks like I'm wrong. I was definitely wrong by using the word permissible it is required that the SA circuit supply the dinning room. It has been some time since I've done residential and it looks like I need to study some more.
That being said, I do not see where the code prohibits circuits other then the required SA circuits to feed an outlet in the dinning area. However, after consideration I can understand why an inspector may not allow this, as a home owner may plug in devices we consider small appliances into these circuits because they are there. However just because an outlet is in a location does not mean it all the sudden becomes something it is not. Do you disagree with that Charlie B? Nothing personal but I do not think it becomes something it isn't just because of its existence.
We must keep in mind the code is just a minimum and if you go above and beyond you are still ok. Years ago we were allowed to provide GP circuits and outside outlets in areas that also must have a SA circuit or some other requirement. Maybe times have changed and maybe I'm out of the loop on new residential.I do find this a much more interesting thought then AFCI debates as I am not a fan, in the least, of AFCI's.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: outdoor receptacle
OK Local, cudos on your edit.
Now, I, for one will agree with you that Once the REQUIRED receptacles are installed in the dining room, it would be permissable to add others that would not by default become SA circuts.
One example would be receptacles under the window as part of a 'Holiday Package', that we often install.
But on the reverse, these cannot be included in the wall space requirements of the SA circut.
OK Local, cudos on your edit.
Now, I, for one will agree with you that Once the REQUIRED receptacles are installed in the dining room, it would be permissable to add others that would not by default become SA circuts.
One example would be receptacles under the window as part of a 'Holiday Package', that we often install.
But on the reverse, these cannot be included in the wall space requirements of the SA circut.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: outdoor receptacle
Local,
My above position has been debated before on this Forum, pro and con.
Local,
My above position has been debated before on this Forum, pro and con.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: outdoor receptacle
cs409 its been 31 long years,210.52 (1) % (2)
do not allow you to tag a wp gfci or any other receptacle off this circuit unless listed in that section.
cs409 its been 31 long years,210.52 (1) % (2)
do not allow you to tag a wp gfci or any other receptacle off this circuit unless listed in that section.
Re: outdoor receptacle
Charlie b:
I have to disagree with your proof.
Steve
[ August 31, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
Charlie b:
I have to disagree with your proof.
The receptacle may be there for other reasons. It may be there per 210.70(A)(1), in which case it would not be on a small appliance circuit
Steve
[ August 31, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
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