outdoor receptacle
- Thread starter livewirek1
- Start date
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A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: outdoor receptacle
Sorry if i ruffled your feathers,it`s just that we get allot of homeowners here with one post that want DIY info.I offer you my appoligy
Sorry if i ruffled your feathers,it`s just that we get allot of homeowners here with one post that want DIY info.I offer you my appoligy
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: outdoor receptacle
The code states that we must install two or more SA circuits. Suppose we are just beginning the wiring installation for a new house. Suppose we have installed two SA circuits, and they serve nothing other than kitchen loads. Now suppose we are ready to install the next circuit. Let?s raise the question, ?Will this next circuit be an SA circuit or not?? (Please note that this question is important, because an SA circuit has limitations. You can?t, for example, use an SA circuit for an outdoor receptacle.) How do we answer that question? Well, if the circuit provides power to general purpose receptacles in the dining room, then the answer must by ?yes.? Reference 210.52(B)(1). This third circuit is not one of the ?two required SA circuits,? but rather is one of the ?or more? SA circuits.
I concede this weakness in my proof, and will adjust it accordingly. See below.
I do disagree. Specifically, I submit that if you install a receptacle in the dining room, and if it is not for a switched light (with acknowledgements to Steve66), then it becomes an SA circuit, and it inherits the restrictions associated with SA circuits.
The code states that we must install two or more SA circuits. Suppose we are just beginning the wiring installation for a new house. Suppose we have installed two SA circuits, and they serve nothing other than kitchen loads. Now suppose we are ready to install the next circuit. Let?s raise the question, ?Will this next circuit be an SA circuit or not?? (Please note that this question is important, because an SA circuit has limitations. You can?t, for example, use an SA circuit for an outdoor receptacle.) How do we answer that question? Well, if the circuit provides power to general purpose receptacles in the dining room, then the answer must by ?yes.? Reference 210.52(B)(1). This third circuit is not one of the ?two required SA circuits,? but rather is one of the ?or more? SA circuits.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: outdoor receptacle
I think you could have all the recep's you wanted on GP Branch Cirs in the dining room as long as they are more than 5.5 feet AFF
See 210-52(1st paragraph)
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why the dining recep's are required to be on SA circ's. Is it a hold over from days gone by when loads were different in the dining room? It would seem that you would want the full circuit capacity available for all the appliances in the kitchen.
I think you could have all the recep's you wanted on GP Branch Cirs in the dining room as long as they are more than 5.5 feet AFF
See 210-52(1st paragraph) Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why the dining recep's are required to be on SA circ's. Is it a hold over from days gone by when loads were different in the dining room?
It would seem that you would want the full circuit capacity available for all the appliances in the kitchen. 
Re: outdoor receptacle
Larry,
On the other hand, more and more dwellings are being designed so that it is sometimes hard to define a break between Kitchen and Dining Room.
For that matter, some homes (especially get away homes here in the mountains) are designed kind of like Loft Appartments ( not to mention Loft Appartments themselves) I.E. one large room with a loft overlooking everything.
What breaks the required SA circuits from being on every wall?
Roger
Larry,
I think you have hit the reason square in the nose, it is simply a hold over.
On the other hand, more and more dwellings are being designed so that it is sometimes hard to define a break between Kitchen and Dining Room.
For that matter, some homes (especially get away homes here in the mountains) are designed kind of like Loft Appartments ( not to mention Loft Appartments themselves) I.E. one large room with a loft overlooking everything.
What breaks the required SA circuits from being on every wall?
Roger
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: outdoor receptacle
I have recently had a customer request an additional circuit to there dinning room because they had an embarrassing moment when they tried to connect 5 food warmers and crock pots to the one 20 amp circuit. The circuit tripped with out no indication that it went off and by the time they went to serve the food it was cold.
Remember that when home owners have big dinners this can be common.
I have recently had a customer request an additional circuit to there dinning room because they had an embarrassing moment when they tried to connect 5 food warmers and crock pots to the one 20 amp circuit. The circuit tripped with out no indication that it went off and by the time they went to serve the food it was cold.
Remember that when home owners have big dinners this can be common.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: outdoor receptacle
Larry yes in a way you are correct
(I think you could have all the recep's you wanted on GP Branch Cirs in the dining room as long as they are more than 5.5 feet AFF See 210-52(1st paragraphay you are correct)
but the required spacing receptacles would still have to be on a 20 amp circuit.Not to long ago I did a warranty call for the dining/nook circuit tripping.What I found was a table that had a heating element that encompassed the entire table top.One big warmer !!!12.5 amps when it was plugged in,once the coffee pot was turned on TRIP went the breaker.Remedy told H.O. to make the coffee in the kitchen(dining/nook was seperate from 2 S.A. circuits)Even though it didn`t have to be wired that way.To my relief it was.
Larry yes in a way you are correct
(I think you could have all the recep's you wanted on GP Branch Cirs in the dining room as long as they are more than 5.5 feet AFF See 210-52(1st paragraphay you are correct)
but the required spacing receptacles would still have to be on a 20 amp circuit.Not to long ago I did a warranty call for the dining/nook circuit tripping.What I found was a table that had a heating element that encompassed the entire table top.One big warmer !!!12.5 amps when it was plugged in,once the coffee pot was turned on TRIP went the breaker.Remedy told H.O. to make the coffee in the kitchen(dining/nook was seperate from 2 S.A. circuits)Even though it didn`t have to be wired that way.To my relief it was.
1793
Senior Member
- Location
- Louisville, Kentucky
- Occupation
- Inspector
Re: outdoor receptacle
If this is an older home and the dinning room IS NOT on a SA circuit then "YES" a WP receptacle could be added under GP circuit.
If however, the dinning room is on a SA circuit then "NO" 210.52(B)(2).
I feel there is one question we have failed to ask or looked into about this post. How old is this house and IS THIS dinning room wired in accordance with the 2002 NEC SA requirement?
If this is an older home and the dinning room IS NOT on a SA circuit then "YES" a WP receptacle could be added under GP circuit.
If however, the dinning room is on a SA circuit then "NO" 210.52(B)(2).
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: outdoor receptacle
It's hard to define sometimes I agree. The dining room area just blends into the living room area.
To Wayne and Wayne
Thanks. Now I have a good answer when someone asks what the big deal about putting the dining room "area" on SA circ's.
As someone else mentioned (sorry can't find that post) it is a good idea to put a seperate or 3rd SA in the dining room.
To 1793
Wow, how old would that house have to be to have the dining not on SA??
RodgerOriginally posted by roger:
What breaks the required SA circuits from being on every wall?
Roger
It's hard to define sometimes I agree. The dining room area just blends into the living room area.
To Wayne and Wayne
Thanks. Now I have a good answer when someone asks what the big deal about putting the dining room "area" on SA circ's.
As someone else mentioned (sorry can't find that post) it is a good idea to put a seperate or 3rd SA in the dining room.
To 1793
Wow, how old would that house have to be to have the dining not on SA??
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