Outdoor receptacles 406.8(B)

[goldstar]

Amen Charlie. It's time to put this to bed. I never really expected to win this argument - just posting my point of view. You see it your way along with the majority and I see it my way. As it stands right now 50% of the inspectors in my area see this my way. When the majority see it your way I'll concede.

 

[charlie b]

You will forgive me, I hope, for asking for one more comment. But I do not understand what you mean by "your way." You haven't explained to my meager understanding what it is that you think should be acceptable. Can I ask for a simple statement of what "your way" entails?

For example, let us consider a receptacle rated 20 amps, 125 volts, installed on the rear outdoor wall of a house, in an area that is not protected by a roof overhang or eave. I think we agree that this is a "wet area."

Are you saying that the NEC allows a "flap cover" because it is weatherproof when nothing is plugged in, even if it is not weatherproof after you plug something in? Is that the "your way"?

 

[FIRERESCUE]

I would have to agree with GOLDSTAR on this one. I have only installed flip style covers unless an "IN USE" application arrises. While having inspections performed on many new homes in my area I have yet to see a new house with bubble style covers where "IN USE" does not apply. "IN USE" in a wet or damp location should require a bubble cover or equivalent and when not in use the weather proof flip door conforms to the code requirement or the code would say "shall use "IN USE" covers" rather than listed as "weather proof".

 

[don_resqcapt19]

firerescue,

I would have to agree with GOLDSTAR on this one.

Then you are both violating the rule as found in the 2005 NEC. It is very clear and leaves no room for interpretations.
Don

 

[bikeindy]

What if you live in Vegas and it rarely rains and when you plug something in it is still weather proof because it is not raining? Give me a break. I live in what use to be a rain forest and here people don't use power tools in the rain. so if it is sunny and I plug something into a plug that has a flip cover it is weather proof. then it starts to rain and I want my equipment which is not weather proof to survive the rain so I unplug it. the flip cover goes down and is weather proof. Hmm, has anyone thought of common sense? Here they will not violate you for flip covers unless you put it in for permanent equipment. ie pool.

 

[charlie b]

What if you live in Vegas and it rarely rains and when you plug something in it is still weather proof because it is not raining?

Look at the Article 100 definition of "weatherproof." It says that the device is constructed in such a way that exposure to weather will not interfere with successful operation. It does not say exposure to sunny weather. It says exposure to any weather. So no, something cannot be weatherproof if it is only weatherproof on sunny days.

. . . and here people don't use power tools in the rain.

But the receptacle has to be constructed in such a way as to make it safe if they chose to plug in something, anything, even if it is raining. Do you think outdoor receptacles are there only for the use of hand-held power tools? Do you think there are no "manly men" who would prefer to spend a couple more minutes finishing off some power-tool-assisted task now, rather than wait until it stops raining?

The purpose of the NEC is to facilitate the installation of a safe system. If someone plans an outdoor reception, but puts up a canopy because rain is predicted, and then plugs in some portable lights to let the party continue after dark, and if the absence of a weatherproof cover led to the electrocution of one of the guests, are you going to say it is their own fault for not knowing the receptacle was unsafe in the rain? I say it would be your fault for not following the code.

 

[infinity]

I'm with Charlie. This article is pretty clear. Wet location=in-use cover. And I would disagree with FIRERESCUE, a damp location does not require an in-use cover under either condition he mentioned.

 

[goldstar]

Then you are both violating the rule as found in the 2005 NEC. It is very clear and leaves no room for interpretations.

Don,

If you look at the amount of posts we have just under the heading of NEC (including the archives) it's obvious that there are many areas that are subject to interpretation. If all articles were written and crystal clear to everyone we wouldn't be here in the forum talking about them.

Charlie,

Please bear with me on this and I'll try to explain my side one more time. I've already said this is a matter of symantics. When you buy a GFI receptacle at the supply house does it come with a w/p cover ? No. Would you install that GFI receptacle on the outside of a house with the std. plastic cover plate ? No. Why ? It's not weatherproof. So, what I believe the article states is that any of these receptacles located outdoors has to be weatherproof(first and foremost). If you have a plug inserted, the bubble cover is the correct one to use. If you don't have a plug inserted the flip cover is still weatherproof. Install a bubble cover to accommodate a hedge trimmer is ridicuolous. Your (and others) interpretation is that the enclosure and cover has to be weatherproof irrespective of whether a plug is inserted or not.

Where can we incorporate the terms intended, attended and unattended ?

 

[charlie b]

So, what I believe the article states is that any of these receptacles located outdoors has to be weatherproof(first and foremost).

This is not a matter of semantics. The words, "whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted" is a prepositional phrase that modifies the word "weatherproof." That entire phrase is associated with the word "weatherproof." You don't get to stop reading at the word "weatherproof," and conclude that the sentence has no more information to offer.

If you have a plug inserted, the bubble cover is the correct one to use. If you don't have a plug inserted the flip cover is still weatherproof.

Would you buy and install a receptacle, and then build a concrete wall over it, to prevent it from ever being used? Would you weld a blank metal plate over it, to prevent it from ever being used?

It is nonsense to talk about a receptacle that does not have a plug inserted, as though that were the purpose of the receptacle. The purpose of a receptacle is to be the place you plug a plug into. Are you suggesting that we install a flip cover, but then tell the homeowner that each time he wants to plug something in he has to replace the flip cover with a bubble cover, but then after he unplugs the device he can put the flip cover back on?

 

[charlie b]

Don, If you look at the amount of posts we have just under the heading of NEC (including the archives) it's obvious that there are many areas that are subject to interpretation.

This is not one of them. You are arguing "from the general to the specific," and that is a classic example of invalid reasoning. You can't say that there are areas that are unclear, and use that to prove that this specific article is unclear. It is not unclear, and it is not open to interpretation.

 

[tonyi]

Come Christmas in a new house, I'd argue that its reasonable to expect christmas lights to be plugged into these things.

Been too many people electrocuted and houses burned down by bogus christmas lights to not try and have that stuff plugged into a GFI circuit.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Outdoor receptacles 406.8(B)

Goldstar, this is, I believe, my first jump into this foray (I didn't feel like looking to be sure), so I'm using just your opening post.

Section 406.8(B)(1) indicates that outdoor receptacles have to have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether an attachment plug is installed or not.

If you acknowlege that, why are we here?

Oh, yeah, because that's what you do in a herd, I mean a forum.

That doesn't mean that you have to anticipate that somewhere down the line a homeowner might have a tool or appliance plugged in all year 'round and you should have installed a bubble cover to cover this possibility.

Right; you don't have to anticipate what might be done. That's one function of building codes: to eliminate (okay, lessen) having to make guesses about the future.

For the most part, codes provide for worst-case possibilities. How often is a panel loaded even near its Art. 220 calculated load? How often are floors loaded to their design limits?

The gasketing for the bubble cover doesn't offer any more protection than the gasketing for a flap cover.

That's true, when they're both closed. Besides, most bubble covers don't have gaskets; they rely on overlaps and gravity, like most 3R enclosures.

The point is that only one retains its weather-proofness while in use.

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, now I'll respond to your last post:

When you buy a GFI receptacle at the supply house does it come with a w/p cover ? No. Would you install that GFI receptacle on the outside of a house with the std. plastic cover plate ? No. Why ? It's not weatherproof. So, what I believe the article states is that any of these receptacles located outdoors has to be weatherproof(first and foremost).

So far, so good. Weatherproof is a good thing in weather.

If you have a plug inserted, the bubble cover is the correct one to use. If you don't have a plug inserted the flip cover is still weatherproof.

No argument yet. Code-compliant, no; weatherproof, yes.

Install a bubble cover to accommodate a hedge trimmer is ridicuolous.

I still agree with you. Installing a bubble cover for the purpose of hedge trimming is silly. However, there are plent of non-attended uses for outdoor receptacles.

Your (and others) interpretation is that the enclosure and cover has to be weatherproof irrespective of whether a plug is inserted or not.

I'm still with you; that is the concensus. It's also what 406.8(B)(1) says.

Where can we incorporate the terms intended, attended and unattended ?

Goldstar, 406.8(B)(1) is 100% clear. However, your emboldened words appear in 406.8(B)(2), which applies to other than "15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles."

I will close with a question:

Exactly where on a typical residence, that we agree is considered a wet location as per the NEC, would you say that a non-weatherproof-while-in-use cover would be appropriate; and as a separate question, code-compliant?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Phil,

If you look at the amount of posts we have just under the heading of NEC (including the archives) it's obvious that there are many areas that are subject to interpretation. If all articles were written and crystal clear to everyone we wouldn't be here in the forum talking about them.

While there are a number of places where the code is subject to interpretation, this isn't one of them. The code language is very clear in this case there is no room for any interpretation that permits the use of a "flip" cover for 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed in a wet location.
If it is a damp location and not a wet location then the flip cover is ok.
Is a bubble cover over kill and ugly...sure it is, but you need some version of it to be compliant with the code for receptacles in wet locations. Just because not all inspectors enforce this rule, does not mean it is not a code rule.
Don

 

[goldstar]

Charlie,

I can tell by the tone of your posts that the veins are popping out of your neck. I was never looking to irritate anyone with my opinions as they are just that - opinions. I do not openly and deliberately scoff at the NEC. My installations are neat and as accurate as possible. If an inspector red tags me for an installation where I installed flip covers on outdoor receptacles, I make the changes period. I may voice my opinion but he has the final say. It is my opinion that the CMP that included the language in 406.8(B)(1) did not make it crystal clear that they are insisting that bubble covers be used on all outdoor receptacles especially when they include language in (B)(2)(a) and (b) that use the words not attended and attended respectfully.

What would you suppost the CMP was referring to in section (B)(2) when they used the language Other receptacles ? What kind of receptacle, under (B)(2)(a), would you plug a landscape lighting transformer, a sprinkler system controller or holiday lighting into ? A 240 volt single receptacle with a twist-lock feature ? Not hardly !!! It's going to be a 120 volt 15 or 20 amp receptacle. But wait a moment, according to your interpretation section (B)(1) indicated that all 120 volt wet location receptacles had to have a bubble cover. Then why bother going into description in (B)(2)(a) and (b) if (B)(1) is crystal clear ? Under (B)(2)(b) there is the term attended and they give an example of portable tools. In my original post I mentioned that Mike Holt had an illustration that showed a hand drill plugged into an outdoor receptacle with a flip cover and he made the statement that this would be a violation. I took exception to that based on the language in (B)(2)(b).

Aside from our obvious disagreement here I would like to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for everyone that posts here irrespective of their opinions. And, I have the utmost respect for Mike Holt and his extensive knowledge of the NEC. However, his opinions are just that - opinions. While we tend to favor his opinions, they are not official interpretations and they don't hold any more weight than any of ours with respect to the NEC or a specific job.

Respectfully,

Phil
Gold Star Electric
New Jersey

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Phil,

What kind of receptacle, under (B)(2)(a), would you plug a landscape lighting transformer, a sprinkler system controller or holiday lighting into ? A 240 volt single receptacle with a twist-lock feature ? Not hardly !!! It's going to be a 120 volt 15 or 20 amp receptacle. But wait a moment, according to your interpretation section (B)(1) indicated that all 120 volt wet location receptacles had to have a bubble cover. Then why bother going into description in (B)(2)(a) and (b) if (B)(1) is crystal clear ? Under (B)(2)(b) there is the term attended and they give an example of portable tools. In my original post I mentioned that Mike Holt had an illustration that showed a hand drill plugged into an outdoor receptacle with a flip cover and he made the statement that this would be a violation. I took exception to that based on the language in (B)(2)(b).

There are a lot of other types of receptacles other than 120/250 volt 15 and 20 amp ones. If it is a 120/250 volt 15 or 20 amp it is a (B)(1) application. Any other type of receptacle is a (B)(2). If you have a 15 or 20 amp receptacle above 250 volts or receptacles rated 30 amps or above at any voltage the the rule in (B)(2) applies, otherwise to comply with the code you are stuck with bubble covers.
Don

 

[charlie b]

Charlie, I can tell by the tone of your posts that the veins are popping out of your neck.

Then you don't know me well. I never get "vein popping mad." Well, I did once, but that is a long story. So let me apologize if my tone led you to believe that I was upset. A bit frustrated in my inability to sell you on my point of view, yes. But not upset.

Now, let me say that you really need to stop reading (B)(2). More to the point, you need to stop using any words from (B)(2) in an attempt to make your case for the flip cover. You are talking "apples" and "hand grenades." The two sub-paragraphs have nothing to do with one another.

 

[iwire]

Phil maybe I can help here.

406.8
(B) Wet Locations.

(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Outdoor Receptacles. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed outdoors in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted.

That section posted above applies to these types of receptacles.

The run of the mill receptacles that we use in every home.

Those types (15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles) must get a bubble cover...no exceptions at all.

This code section below....

406.8(B)(2) Other Receptacles. All other receptacles installed in a wet location shall comply with (a) or (b):

(a)A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it is not attended while in use (e.g., sprinkler system controller, landscape lighting, holiday lights, and so forth) shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof with the attachment plug cap inserted or removed

(b)A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it will be attended while in use (e.g., portable tools, and so forth) shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof when the attachment plug is removed.

applies to any receptacles that are not 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles.

When they say 'other' they mean other than the 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles mentioned in section 406.8(B)(1).

If you install an outlet like this...

in a wet location than you get to use 406.8(B)(2).

What kind of holiday lights or sprinkler system controller will use an outlet above 20 amps or 250 volts?

I don't know but that is not what is important here.

What is important is that if you installing just a regular old duplex outlet 406.8(B)(!) is the only section that applies and a bubble cover is required in use or not.

You really think Mike H. does not know the rules? :wink:

 

[goldstar]

Charlie, Don & Bob,

I can buy into this line of thinking :

There are a lot of other types of receptacles other than 120/250 volt 15 and 20 amp ones. If it is a 120/250 volt 15 or 20 amp it is a (B)(1) application. Any other type of receptacle is a (B)(2). If you have a 15 or 20 amp receptacle above 250 volts or receptacles rated 30 amps or above at any voltage the the rule in (B)(2) applies, otherwise to comply with the code you are stuck with bubble covers.

Unless I'm outside welding, the only receptacle I'll have on the side of my house is a GFI protected 120 volt receptacle. I guess the part that's throwing me is what is inferred by the term other receptacles when the CMP has gone to the extent of giving examples such as holiday lights or portable tools. What other type receptacle under (B)(2) (other than a 15 or 20 amp, 125 volt receptacle) can you plug holiday lights into ? Maybe if you can provide me with a scenario of how you would use both on a single job and show the difference it might clear things up for me.

I'm sorry to be so thick headed on this but I just don't see it. Why include section (B)(2)(a) & (b) when (B)(1) covers is all ? Just put bubble covers on everything that way you can't be wrong.

PS : No Bob, I don't really think that Mike Holt doesn't know his stuff regarding the NEC. I consider him the Alan Greenspan of our industry. When he makes a statement - people listen. I hold him in the highest esteem and he has personally helped me in a number of situations for which I will be eternally grateful. Having said that, unless he has an inside track with his God to being an infallable human being, then he is just like the rest of us and subject to possible error. Granted, the odds are greatly in his favor that he is more correct on this subject than I probably am but I thought I put up a good argument for my side.

Regards to all,

Phil

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Phil,

I'm sorry to be so thick headed on this but I just don't see it. Why include section (B)(2)(a) & (b) when (B)(1) covers is all ? Just put bubble covers on everything that way you can't be wrong.

The use of a bubble cover on everthing would be code complaint. B(1) does not cover it all...it only covers 15 and 20 amp, 125/250 volt receptacles. B(2) applies to receptacles other then those coverd in B(1). Remember that the code applies to a lot more than dwelling units. Commerical and industrial occupiances often have recetpacles other than those covered by B(1) in wet locations. I installed some that were 3 phase 480 volt, 400 amps.
Don