Outside bar/kitchen

[blueheels2]

So I have a customer that is building a bar/kitchen seetup outside. There are going to be 2 small fridges and some kind of liquor machine and a sink. Fridges are on a separate circuit. There is also going to be some kind of gas grill as well. My question is do I have to treat this like a real kitchen? 2 appliance circuits and outlets spaced at the normal minimum?

Currently she has requested only 2 outlets on the countertops.

 

[LarryFine]

My question is do I have to treat this like a real kitchen? 2 appliance circuits and outlets spaced at the normal minimum?

Sounds like it meets the definition of a kitchen to me.

To wit:

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

 

[jim dungar]

Per Larry's definition a kitchen needs a sink, is there one?

 

[Fred B]

Per Larry's definition a kitchen needs a sink, is there one?

So I have a customer that is building a bar/kitchen seetup outside. There are going to be 2 small fridges and some kind of liquor machine and a sink. Fridges are on a separate circuit. There is also going to be some kind of gas grill as well. My question is do I have to treat this like a real kitchen? 2 appliance circuits and outlets spaced at the normal minimum?

Currently she has requested only 2 outlets on the countertops.

 

[infinity]

I would argue that unless there is a built in gas grill a portable gas grill is not permanent.

 

[fishin' electrician]

Is there a code that requires the dwelling unit kitchen rules outside of a dwelling unit?

Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of one
dwelling unit.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and inde‐
pendent living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanita‐
tion.

210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the
number of branch circuits required by other parts of this
section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits
shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by
210.52(B).

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section
provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere recepta‐
cle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in
addition to any receptacle that is: .........

 

[kwired]

Then we get times where enforcement varies, a common one is whether or not a microwave is considered permanent provisions for cooking or not. Sure a counter top type microwave might not be but one that is mounted under a cabinet, in a cabinet or on a shelf specifically intended to have a microwave sitting on it?? Free standing ranges are normally considered permanent provisions for cooking yet are fairly easy to unplug and remove even though they typically are located in a space dedicated for the appliance anyway.

Portable grill? if self contained including a gas tank, maybe it is portable. Is it parked in a space dedicated for the grill? If it has a fixed gas line to it maybe it not so portable?

Now you also get into calling this a kitchen do you need other 210.52 receptacles per 6-12 and 2-4 rules? And if so what about portions of perimeter that doesn't have "walls"? Do circuits supplying said kitchen need AFCI protection?

With these outdoor kitchens becoming more common maybe NEC needs to address them specifically and not lump them into the conventional kitchen definition and rules?

 

[infinity]

With these outdoor kitchens becoming more common maybe NEC needs to address them specifically and not lump them into the conventional kitchen definition and rules?

I agree and I'm leaning towards fishin's post that this isn't even part of the dwelling unit.

 

[blueheels2]

I agree and I'm leaning towards fishin's post that this isn't even part of the dwelling unit.

This was my line of thinking when I asked. I’m going to have to calll the ahi and see how they interpret it. Feels like a gray area but maybe it’s plain as day.

 

[Fred B]

Is this space in some way physically attached to the existing SFD? One or more of existing dwelling exterior walls acting as part of the new kitchen space.
Is this space having a roof covering all or part of the space? Attached to existing structure? Basically becoming an open wall addition.
If the space is using the portion of existing structure as it's own space of the kitchen I would think it's an addition that would trigger AFCI protection.
Also, If you look at 210.8(A)(2)(3) the space outside of main dwelling unit structure is considered within the dwelling unit purview.
Also code does not limit the number of posible kitchens for a single family dwelling. Only that to be a dwelling unit it must have a kitchen. Code also does not specify a difference if a kitchen is in a seperate structure or part of the dwelling unit as to requirements.
So it would appear a kitchen is a kitchen if it has all the components of a kitchen. (If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.)
Only additional caviet is if the kitchen is outdoors ALL receptacle outlets would need to be GFCI protected not just the countertop ones.

I would say if the space is being used as a kitchen for entertaining purposes (as most likely purpose), the same likelyhood of circuit loads exists with the use of multiple plugin appliances that you would find in an indoor kitchen.
The Code, in general, by the required circuit and receptacles, in some way looks to discourage the use of extension cords. And without adequate capacity even in the outdoors kitchen, the use of multiple extension cords could be expected.

So here we are, yet another "what if" that is not fully addressed within the code. So it seems AHJ is left to make the call as to when is a "kitchen" not a kitchen, even if it has all the components of a kitchen.
This is why law libraries are comprised of hundreds of volumes of law books trying to cover all the "what ifs". But I don't believe we really want the NEC to become that voluminous.
Also as electrician we do have some responsibility to protect the public from themselves with regards to the electrical installation and safety, and the courts recognize that if something does happen. (Is it "reasonable to expect" a certain action or activity.)

 

[kwired]

Is this space in some way physically attached to the existing SFD? One or more of existing dwelling exterior walls acting as part of the new kitchen space.
Is this space having a roof covering all or part of the space? Attached to existing structure? Basically becoming an open wall addition.
If the space is using the portion of existing structure as it's own space of the kitchen I would think it's an addition that would trigger AFCI protection.
Also, If you look at 210.8(A)(2)(3) the space outside of main dwelling unit structure is considered within the dwelling unit purview.
Also code does not limit the number of posible kitchens for a single family dwelling. Only that to be a dwelling unit it must have a kitchen. Code also does not specify a difference if a kitchen is in a seperate structure or part of the dwelling unit as to requirements.
So it would appear a kitchen is a kitchen if it has all the components of a kitchen. (If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.)
Only additional caviet is if the kitchen is outdoors ALL receptacle outlets would need to be GFCI protected not just the countertop ones.

I would say if the space is being used as a kitchen for entertaining purposes (as most likely purpose), the same likelyhood of circuit loads exists with the use of multiple plugin appliances that you would find in an indoor kitchen.
The Code, in general, by the required circuit and receptacles, in some way looks to discourage the use of extension cords. And without adequate capacity even in the outdoors kitchen, the use of multiple extension cords could be expected.

So here we are, yet another "what if" that is not fully addressed within the code. So it seems AHJ is left to make the call as to when is a "kitchen" not a kitchen, even if it has all the components of a kitchen.
This is why law libraries are comprised of hundreds of volumes of law books trying to cover all the "what ifs". But I don't believe we really want the NEC to become that voluminous.
Also as electrician we do have some responsibility to protect the public from themselves with regards to the electrical installation and safety, and the courts recognize that if something does happen. (Is it "reasonable to expect" a certain action or activity.)

I just recently gave an estimate for a new home, it did have much of what you described. Roof over the outdoor kitchen, most of three sides bordered by the house walls, one + sides open to outdoors though. All shown on plans for most part was an island with a sink and some (non specified) grill or cooktop shown on that island. (I did factor in a 50 amp 125/250 circuit to that location and GFCI protection on it just in case) I didn't think too much about it code wise other than figuring it would need GFCI protection for receptacles, and very likely weatherproof covers (maybe not necessarily WPIU though) and WR receptacles. But if this is technically a kitchen per NEC, then I probably do need two SABC's minimum, in addition to the two minimum to the indoor kitchen, 6-12 receptacle spacing around the perimeter or at least most the perimeter and possibly AFCI protection on all the 120 volt items serving this "kitchen".

 

[blueheels2]

Talked to the AHJ. It is considered a kitchen and I must provide the proper number of receptacles. AFCI’s are not required.

 

[rc/retired]

Talked to the AHJ. It is considered a kitchen and I must provide the proper number of receptacles. AFCI’s are not required.

Does that make sense? It's a kitchen requiring the compliant number of receptacles but it's not a kitchen requiring AFCI protection.

 

[blueheels2]

Does that make sense? It's a kitchen requiring the compliant number of receptacles but it's not a kitchen requiring AFCI protection.

I don’t think it needs afci because it’s outside but what do I know lol. I was glad because I don’t want to pay for 3 afci’s.

 

[mtnelect]

In California they have ADU (Accessory Dwelling Unit) & JADU (Junior Accessory Dwelling Unit). In which they all have cooking facilities that must meet Section 210.81(A).

 

[mtnelect]

In California they have ADU (Accessory Dwelling Unit) & JADU (Junior Accessory Dwelling Unit). In which they all have cooking facilities that must meet Section 210.81(A).

Should be 210.8(A)

 

[Another C10]

Myself... I'd follow spacing and protections as within any residential floor plan, you can even add more than code requires actually, if the customer wants a counter top receptacle every 12" let em have it. Just make sure you know all the proposed loads so they can have everything operating at the same time if wished, blenders, warmers, refrigerators, microwave, rotisserie, maybe 4 to 6 circuits. Depending on the size of this outdoor area for entertaining guests.

 

[kwired]

Does that make sense? It's a kitchen requiring the compliant number of receptacles but it's not a kitchen requiring AFCI protection.

It doesn't make sense. If you are going to call it a kitchen then 210.12 is going to require AFCI protection, and 210.52 will have receptacle placement requirements, also 210.52(B)(3) doesn't allow a SABC to serve more than one kitchen so you need at least one separate SABC for this particular kitchen.

 

[rc/retired]

I totally agree.

Ron

 

[Another C10]

I don’t think it needs afci because it’s outside but what do I know

In California AFCI are necessary only in area's were people normally or occasionally sleep, no garages, kitchens, bathrooms, laundry areas etc .. although I'm sure there is an Inspector out there somewhere that would call me out on it, making me spend hours finding the 4th note of some exception.